How Do You Exit Meta's Learning Phase?

[00:00:00] Tony Chopp: Like, you can't, you can't media buy your way out of.

[00:00:03] Richard Gaffin: Right.

[00:00:04] Tony Chopp: A pro mismatch on product market fit.

[00:00:07] Richard Gaffin: Yeah,

[00:00:08] Tony Chopp: So to Luke's point, like, which I totally agree with, like check the box, like get your account out of learning phase.

Do it however, by whatever tactical means are necessary, like add to cart optimization, consolidation, like all of it. But to Luke's point, like that's not move the needle. You just can't, you can't tactic your way out of that problem.

[00:00:26] Luke Austin: I think offer, offer strategy is. And under, so offer strategy as it relates to marketing services and legion funnels is pretty highly developed. Like it gets a lot more focus in conversation in my experience. And then relative to e-comm can be sort of under underserved and part of the conversation and tactics and creative get a lot more of the focus.

Where offer strategy is such is, is can be such a high performing lever in thinking about. What is the, what is my customer acquisition funnel? What is the what? What are the phases and the touch points that I'm bringing folks into the brand? What is the best intro product? What is the pricing of it? And like an ex, so an example of this is just utilizing existing products that you have on the site and communicating them a different way.

everyone. I just wanted to take a few seconds here to talk to you about admission. Our membership program here at CTC, that gives you access to one-on-one consultations with our growth experts, as well as weekly live events and access to our gated library of e-commerce trainings. This is the best way to work with us here at Common Thread Collective if you're in the six to seven figure range.

Now, to get started, all you have to do is book a call with me. To talk more about it@youradmission.co. That's your admission.co. Alright, back to the show.

[00:01:46] Richard Gaffin: Alright, welcome folks to the D two C hotline. This is your direct connection to Hot Takes, cold Truth, and real e-Comm advice. From some of the best in the business. I'm your host, Richard, the Professor Gaffin. Now quick note, remember, you can call or text eight six six DTC 2 2 6 3 and get your burning e-com questions answered.

Again, that's 8 6 6 3 8 2 2 2 6 3. Leave a voicemail or you can just shoot us a text. Ask whatever's on your mind. D two C wise, our operators are standing by and. Speaking of operators, I'm gonna introduce you to our first one here, which is of course, Mr. Tony, the Chopper Chop, who's coming in, Not from Costa Mesa, as he usually does, but from the Chelsea Bar in Chelsea, New York.

Why, why don't you tell us, Tony, what what event are you at

[00:02:29] Tony Chopp: Coast to coast. Richard,

[00:02:30] Richard Gaffin: That's right.

[00:02:31] Tony Chopp: meta, meta hosts a bunch of events throughout the year, but they, they host several agency specific events that cater to their agency partners.

[00:02:40] Richard Gaffin: Mm.

[00:02:41] Tony Chopp: So this is was an agency specific summit. All the tendencies are performance media agencies, and we get to talk about all the interesting and cool things that we're, we're looking to do together in partnership between our agency and, and meta.

[00:02:56] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, so what Tony's trying to say is that he's a keynote speaker, very important person, which is why it's so incredible that we get to talk to him directly. And he also, he may or may not be sipping on a martini, which is of course. Very D two C hotline. Extra dry, extra dirty. Who knows? We'll never tell.

Okay, let's let's move on, of course to our other expert here, Mr. Luke, the weatherman Austin calling in from the office. Nothing exciting there. How you doing, Luke?

[00:03:19] Luke Austin: Not at all. Just holding down the Fort Richard, just holding down the fort while Tony's

[00:03:23] Richard Gaffin: yeah,

[00:03:24] Luke Austin: sipping martinis.

[00:03:25] Richard Gaffin: Somebody's gotta do it.

[00:03:27] Luke Austin: We do, we do have funny enough some weather in orange County, the, one of the three days of the year that we get any sort of weather happened. One of them happened yesterday.

We got some rainforest. So, that seems fitting.

[00:03:42] Tony Chopp: Did you forecast it?

[00:03:44] Richard Gaffin: Oh, there you go.

[00:03:45] Luke Austin: Oh, I, I knew it was coming. I

[00:03:47] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. He's the weather man for God's sakes. Of course he knows. Alright folks, well, we'll get straight into it.

with these two illustrious fellows here, ready to give us their advice. Let's, we got a couple voicemails let's jump straight into them here. All right

[00:04:00] Mediaboard_sounds: hey, big creator of the show. a two part question for you. I'm working with several brands right now that are dealing with really low conversion volume, making it extremely difficult to get their meta ads out of their learning limited status and scale spend. These are often high a OB brands new lines of business, maybe brand new accounts beyond just adjusting budgets.

How should these low conversion volume brands prioritize the diff different tactics to get them out of the learning phase? Second part of the question, what should these brands do? If none of the common suggestion methods, like higher funnel conversions, consolidation or changing attribution settings still won't seem to be doing enough to drive volume to get them out of the learning phase.

[00:04:44] Richard Gaffin: All right. We turn this over to.

[00:04:48] Tony Chopp: Well, I mean, the caller like already like implied that my suggestions aren't gonna work, so, so I mean, okay. So anyway, fir first suggestion is, you know, fo focus on your signal. Like, the first tactic that I would look at in this scenario is, you know, an add to.

cart optimization, which is like one step up from, from purchase and you can kind of keep working your way up from there with sort of higher up engagement metrics as your optimization goal. So now let, let me sort of, let me, let me talk about the.

It's the part of the question where none of that works. If I'm in this situation and I have high a OV products, plural. What I'm gonna do is focus on a product specifically. So I'm gonna keep sharpening down what it is that I'm trying to build an advertising funnel for. Because what, what I think the caller is expressing is I don't have the Right. relationship between the amount of media dollars that I can invest to get to enough signal to get the whole thing to work from a conversion optimized standpoint.

So if you have. A hundred products, focus on your top 10. If you have 10 products, think about focusing on your top two or three. Keep working that backwards until you can put as much of your resources as you can in, in order to get to some volume of conversion signal. And, and it's really, it's really hard to hire OB products.

But one last point to add before I kick you over to Luke. Running conversion optimized campaigns is a core part of our strategy for All of our accounts. For super high A OV or long consideration cycle, products add to cart optimization or consideration type optimization goals absolutely need to be part of your media mix.

Hundred percent. It's not tshirt.

[00:06:54] Richard Gaffin: right, Luke, what's your take?

[00:06:56] Luke Austin: So without, saying the same thing again around, open it up to the seven day click, one day view instead of click only optimize for the upper upper funnel events like the there. Consolidation and maximizing, maximizing signal through consolidation and adjusting the optimization setting are, are going to be the things that most helpfully get you there.

So if I'm, if I'm there, then my ad account likely looks like one a SC campaign that's optimized for seven day click plus one day view, and jamming all the creatives in it and inflated budget so that when something does take off, it, it, it, it starts to get some traction.

[00:07:30] Tony Chopp: That's a really good point. Not to interrupt you, Luke, but the big inflated budget on high A OV products is really important.

[00:07:36] Luke Austin: Yes. Because what we see in things like the day week effect is there are certain. Days of the week where you may get maybe that campaign's getting three conversions, but then you have one day that picks, it picks up 10 or 12, right? And then back down. And then over the course of the week, you actually are starting to get more traction.

But unless you have the inflated budgets, unless you have the consolidation, unless you're maximizing signal then it's gonna be really challenging for, for the campaign to get there. Outside of that, if like, if. That's not your problem. like, get that in place and then if it's still not working, there's, there's something to solve that's not in the ad account structure related.

It's, it's related to the offer. It's related to the product that you have to, the offer that the product is associated with. To the landing page destination and how it's being me, me messaged on, on your site. There are bigger levers that need to be pulled because this is only gonna get you so, so far and moving up to, oh, let's try initiate checkout optimization.

And maybe it's, it's just going to produce a. A, an outcome within a similar band, which at the heart of the question, I think is we're not getting the outcome in the business that we want. So we need a, we need a bigger lever to be changed. So once I have that in place, I'd go, I'd go solve, solve the bigger things.

Create a, create a whole new bundle, create a whole new intro offer, create another entry point into the, into the business. And, and think about, think about that.

[00:09:04] Richard Gaffin: So basically like what we're saying, this, this kind of goes back to a conversation that we've had a lot, which is that at a certain level or, or really like tactical. Choices or structure level accountable changes rather can only do so much. And really that's about adding fuel to a fire rather than building a fire putting lighter fluid, let's say onto the grill rather than like building the charcoal or whatever.

Right. So, essentially is like part of what we're saying, like what we said in the past, which is just get better creative or are there other, like, what other kind of like elements do you, would you need to look at?

[00:09:37] Tony Chopp: You know, o offer audience angle, the type of creative, like, like at the risk of diminishing my entire life's work. Like, you can't, you can't media buy your way out of.

[00:09:48] Richard Gaffin: Right.

[00:09:49] Tony Chopp: A pro mismatch on product market fit.

[00:09:52] Richard Gaffin: Yeah,

[00:09:53] Tony Chopp: So to Luke's point, like, which I totally agree with, like check the box, like get your account out of learning phase.

Do it however, by whatever tactical means are necessary, like add to cart optimization, consolidation, like all of it. But to Luke's point, like that's not move the needle. You just can't, you can't tactic your way out of that problem.

[00:10:11] Luke Austin: I think offer, offer strategy is. And under, so offer strategy as it relates to marketing services and legion funnels is pretty highly developed. Like it gets a lot more focus in conversation in my experience. And then relative to e-comm can be sort of under underserved and part of the conversation and tactics and creative get a lot more of the focus.

Where offer strategy is such is, is can be such a high performing lever in thinking about. What is the, what is my customer acquisition funnel? What is the what? What are the phases and the touch points that I'm bringing folks into the brand? What is the best intro product? What is the pricing of it? And like an ex, so an example of this is just utilizing existing products that you have on the site and communicating them a different way.

We work with, a brand that sells socks. We, we work with multiple sock brands but they, they sell socks of all different shapes and sizes. But the course of over the course of the years with them, we have tested I dunno, probably 2025 different Evergreen intro offers a ways to buy socks.

You have buy two, get one. You have five pairs for $80. You have. pairs for $40 you have, you can just like slice and dice it so many different ways that it changes your A OV dynamics completely as well as the value perception to the customer of 20% off site-wide for socks versus. two, get one or buy three, get two or five for three.

Like, you can message these things in such different ways. That and, and just based on your margin dynamics, you, you have a lot of options in terms of the offer structure that create a whole different a OV on the backend and the conversion rate associated with it. That's disassociated from, you know, that's not directly connected to you don't the traffic that you're driving from your media channel.

So, I think the, the offer strategy, depending on the category that this is in, if it's a single product, then it becomes a little more challenging. But there, there's a lot of meat on the bone, typically, as it relates to offer strategy and how to think about bringing a customer in.

[00:12:16] Richard Gaffin: Yeah.

[00:12:16] Tony Chopp: Yeah,

[00:12:17] Richard Gaffin: I imagine,

[00:12:17] Tony Chopp: we,

[00:12:18] Richard Gaffin: oh, go ahead.

[00:12:19] Tony Chopp: we, you were just talking about like the pricing variance of the offer strategy and, and then you said single product. I thought about gift with purchase. Like I use like a logical, like crazy example. Let's say your product is a thousand dollars. You know, whatever. It's, well, if you, if you offered it for $10, then you people would just beat a path to your door to buy it.

So like the point that it illustrates is that the, the perception of value is, is what is the art of offer crafting. And to Luke's point, there's infinite different ways to approach that.

[00:12:51] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. No, I mean, basically this kind of goes back to just advertising 1 0 1 stuff of like reframing the value of your product. Again, like thinking about different ways to like frame the pricing, frame what you get, gift with the purchase, whatever. But again, like you make a good point like that, that stuff gets underrepresented, I think, in a lot of the conversations that we have.

So, but anyway, all right, let's let's jump on to our next caller here.

[00:13:15] Mediaboard_sounds-1: Guys, first of all, thanks for opening up the DTC hotline. I, I think it's a great way to get some real insight and advice. I'm looking for insight in specifically related to demand gen YouTube ads. My question is, how do you know that they're working? You know, because typically demand gen campaigns, especially when we're doing it for awareness in platform performance, is usually low.

Speaking more specifically about revenue volume or roas. know, what are the kind of tools or metrics could we be looking at to say, Hey, this campaign is working, versus another one where we can pause it. Alright, so really appreciate it. Looking forward to hearing some insights and what you can tell me.

Thanks.

[00:13:55] Richard Gaffin: All right. This feels like a Tony question.

[00:13:57] Tony Chopp: I feel like all my answers are the same. They're okay, so here's, here's what we see. Here's what we, we observe about YouTube specifically. Through the lens of incrementality measurement it reports like

SHI blank in the platform.

[00:14:14] Richard Gaffin: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:16] Tony Chopp: So, on, on average we're seeing the, the actual impact of YouTube advertising be twice as high two x. Versus what's reported in platform. So

[00:14:31] Richard Gaffin: Hmm.

[00:14:31] Tony Chopp: step number one, if you're gonna advertise on YouTube, and I think you should, because it's an absolutely massive audience, you gotta do it through incrementality testing, through us, through house, through measure, through work, magic, whatever you, you have, you have to do this because I'm gonna go on a little bit of a tangent here.

Google the Google Ads platform. It is the sort of like OG digital marketing platform. And if you think about like the, the DNA of it is built on top of running ads on the search results page, which is all built on top of click-based attribution. It's like their whole, it's like so deep in the thing, right?

And they've really struggled, struggled with YouTube. They've struggled to make it something that performance marketers use and a adopt in spite of the fact that it's, it's such a, a, it's such a massive online destination where people spend so much time now compared to meta. You know, over the last decade sort of really started with a a visual asset and has, has.

In the early days really incorporated view attribution into how they think about measurement and performance. And, and we can debate on the merits of view attribution, good, bad, or indifferent. But the, the point, the point that I'm trying to illustrate is that meta got really good at me measuring the impact in platform of visual assets and Google, it's not, it's not part of their, like their d so they've been really bad at measuring.

So step number one is incre. And then outside of that, the, the other thing that, that really stands out about this, and I've been observing the YouTube thing for the last, like, I don't know, five or six years, like wondering why the, the demand gen ad product has undergone a transformation over the last six to eight months in its.

Efficacy of being able to deliver results at scale. Who knows what they changed on the backend? I don't know. I got all sorts of conspiracy theories. The, the shortest version of the, the answer is I think they're figuring out how to show the right ad to the right version at the right time on YouTube shorts specifically.

That's also where we're seeing success for our clients. It's in this triangulation of content creator, UGC nine by 16 content deployed into YouTube shorts, meta apple, and Snapchat, TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. But all that to say, if you're gonna, if you're gonna advertise on YouTube, you're wasting your, you're gonna waste your time if you don't start with incrementality measurement.

[00:17:17] Richard Gaffin: Right. So essentially what you're saying, an answer to the, the caller's question, which is, how do we know that they're working because we're seeing low performance in platform is essentially what you're saying is like, well, it may not actually be that low, but you

[00:17:29] Tony Chopp: Well, you don't know.

[00:17:30] Richard Gaffin: you have to find a different way of measuring to understand what is and isn't working.

[00:17:34] Tony Chopp: Well, the caller's question was, what, what should I pause or what should I continue running? And

[00:17:39] Richard Gaffin: right.

[00:17:39] Tony Chopp: my, my answer to the caller is, you don't know. You, you don't. The answer to your question lives outside of the platform data.

[00:17:46] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. Luke, any any observations here?

[00:17:50] Luke Austin: Just to build you don't know, and you have to assess it in a longer timeframe than you currently are. True for almost every channel, even non. gen or up more upper funnel meta you know, outside of a one day click, the true 28 day click impact, and then the halo effect on Amazon. In addition to that, to understand the true impact of the media, but getting the full picture of the media channel through the lens of incrementality while measuring for effect on other revenue channels like Amazon, while also measuring in a longer time horizon than.

days or 14 days, or even 30 days, you know, the, the, the treatment window on a YouTube dimension test would really look like 30, 60 days depending on the amount of time the test was run for, and the amount of media spend. So a have a longer time horizon in mind measure through the lens of incrementality, measure the full, the totality of the revenue impact across each distribution channel.

[00:18:49] Richard Gaffin: Yeah.

[00:18:51] Tony Chopp: To, to the point of like the longer measurement window. Luke, I've been me to chat with you about this. So I, I have a project that I, that I run in the retail media space which is pretty cool. It's like, just like out there, like trying to figure out how, what, what the best way is to help our partners like actually run media through retail media network.

So this one is a beauty brand and they, they run on they run through Alta. So Alta. Has different ad products and the traffic goes back to Alta instead of the, the brand. So, I was looking for, we, we had an interesting experience where we had media budgets that have fluctuated throughout the year, but then we, we actually had a little bit of a sort of a down period or entering into the summer where the media budgets were pretty consistent and they they sort of trailed off for a little while.

Anyway, we started to see it show up in the revenue. And I, I went, I was just kind of hammering on the numbers to try to find some signal in the noise. And what was super interesting is there, there wasn't a, a strong correlation between. The sort of media spend pacing at a weekly interval or even a monthly interval.

But what GPT full disclosure pointed out was an idea called ad stock, which is something I wasn't familiar with. And essentially what it does is it looks at the cumulative investment over a period of time and there's a, there's actually a really strong correlation through the lens of this ad stock way of measuring the media dollars.

And so. The, the point about, like if you were looking at like, Hey, if I've run my media for one week and then don't run my media for another week, are you gonna get a signal there? The answer in this particular case was no. But running the media for several months and then running it at a lower pace for, you know, six weeks after that, represented a really strong correlation.

So all that to say. Longer measurement windows. I know it's hard performance marketers. I know. I know. You want to live in the every second be patient.

[00:20:49] Richard Gaffin: Here's, here's a question I have because it's something I put to Taylor before too, which is like. in that recommendation to performance marketers who are, you know, obsessed with the day-to-day for obvious sort of psychological reasons, do you have any sort of like tips and tricks for getting your brain to like lock into the long term while not allowing anxiety about the short term to overtake you?

[00:21:11] Tony Chopp: Do I have any psychological tips and tricks?

[00:21:15] Richard Gaffin: It's bit like

[00:21:15] Tony Chopp: So.

[00:21:16] Luke Austin: jump in real

[00:21:17] Richard Gaffin: Go.

[00:21:17] Luke Austin: thing that comes to mind. What the language that we use around this is we're gonna operate. We're gonna operate in full confidence against the best available source of truth at that point in time. And, and we are going to be a hundred percent. This is how we're moving forward and we're gonna action against it.

And in the context of that, not allow for every day or every week jumping on and saying, okay. The business performance isn't where we'd like it to be. Maybe we should go look at GA last, click data now, or maybe we should look at this other revenue source or this other traffic source. Let's use a different measurement framework to maybe look at allocations.

And then you have 12 different frameworks that, and then every, and then no action can be created as a result of that. That is what we see as being that. One of the biggest having one of the biggest negative impacts on, on being able to move forward in, in action. So what executing against the best available source of truth at that point in time.

Looks like we have e either our benchmarks, we have the most recent tests. This is what we are gonna operate for, budget allocation for targets, and we're gonna execute against it. And. In the back of our minds, we know that there is going to be a better available truth in the future, and we have measurements in progress over the course of that time.

But until those are finalized, we're we are going to hold the, be the best avail source of truth, a hundred percent not, Ooh, kinda 80% bought in. So. Let's maybe adjust a little bit. Let's second guess it. We know that it's going to change and it will evolve over time, but in the midst of that, we are gonna align on the measurement framework and decision making framework, and then index fully a hundred percent against that until we get the next result, and then we'll adopt that 100% and move forward as well.

[00:22:52] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. Well, so essentially it's, it's in a sense trust the process. And of course it's really difficult to do unless you have a process to trust in the first place. But essentially that's, that's what you're saying here. It's like we have an understanding that this is the best source of truth and an understanding that we have a systemic way that that source of truth could change.

But the way that's not gonna change is by us freaking out and making adjustments in the account on a day-to-day basis. Right. We have some sense of how that's gonna work.

[00:23:16] Tony Chopp: Yeah. In fact, in fact you, in fact, you sort of overcomplicate or you complicate your ability to, to seek better and better truth by over manipulation of, of an ad, of an ad account. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think that, to answer your question specifically, Richard, I think. The, the best way to think about it is whatever your attribution window is on your media platform, whether it's seven, seven day click on meta or 30 day click on Google.

If you are making decisions out, like without considering a full attri, fully attributed chunk of data,

[00:23:53] Richard Gaffin: Yeah.

[00:23:55] Tony Chopp: know that you are operating with, with, with an incomplete truth. And if you have to do that, that so be it. But just know it.

[00:24:02] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. All right. We got, I know we gotta cut things short a little bit here. 'Cause we just gotta bounce. So I, what I wanna take us, I wanna take us to hot take corner real quick

[00:24:09] Tony Chopp: Hot takes.

[00:24:10] Richard Gaffin: get, get a little a little something spicy from both of you. So, let's start with you, Tony. your hot take of the day?

[00:24:16] Tony Chopp: Oh, hot takes. Everybody in New York City's really nice. I, I, I feel like it gets a bad rap.

[00:24:22] Richard Gaffin: good one. That's a good one. I like it. All right. You know what? Hell yeah. That's great. Let's go to you.

[00:24:28] Luke Austin: Rain isn't so bad. The one day ever rain in Orange County. The here here's a more relevant one to the conversation. I think we've we've been working on our creative demand model at CTC and in the context of this conversation and measuring and testing there's, there's a better framework for understanding what your creative needs are and how to test creative and what you're trying to impact.

That doesn't relate to CTR and hook rate and average watch time and impacting those metrics, but relates to other metrics that actually lead to your business forecast. So my

[00:25:01] Richard Gaffin: No.

[00:25:01] Luke Austin: is I, I am bought in a hundred percent and that is my tease.

[00:25:06] Richard Gaffin: That's right.

[00:25:06] Tony Chopp: Luke Luke's gonna solve the. The, the burning question of eCommerce performing, how much do.

[00:25:15] Luke Austin: Everyone needs a, everyone needs a number, everyone. And here, here's the other portion. This hot take, we had a, we had a round table earlier today with about, there's about 30 folks in the calls, different brand owners, operators, marketers, and we had conversation around creative demand and output. And there were answers.

We had asked the question, how many ads do you create per month? And why? Their answers from, we create 20, about 20, 30 ads per month to, we've created 2000 ads per month every month of this year.

[00:25:42] Richard Gaffin: Wow,

[00:25:43] Luke Austin: And

[00:25:44] Richard Gaffin: Hmm.

[00:25:44] Luke Austin: numbers are not the optimal amount. 2000 is, is much, is, is much closer to an ideal state. But there's probably some months that maybe they needed 3000 and other months that you need 1000. But,

[00:25:56] Tony Chopp: I got a hook for you, Luke. I, I think it's gonna, I chew on this just in time ad production, like, like the manufacturing principle, like ju-just in the right amount at exactly the right time.

[00:26:09] Luke Austin: like the Goldilocks principle for

[00:26:11] Tony Chopp: Now also for the record, I just promised to this whole audience and everybody watching online that you. Thing.

[00:26:20] Richard Gaffin: That's right. That's right. that's about as, as,

[00:26:23] Luke Austin: there.

[00:26:23] Richard Gaffin: as hot a take as it can get is That Luke is.

going to solve the creative problem for all of e-commerce. So I think

[00:26:27] Tony Chopp: Yeah.

[00:26:28] Richard Gaffin: can wrap it up. Yeah. So

[00:26:30] Luke Austin: is.

[00:26:30] Richard Gaffin: that's good. That's a solid hot enough for all three of us, I guess. Although I, I will continue with my commitment to having a hot take myself, which is that

[00:26:38] Luke Austin: that

[00:26:39] Richard Gaffin: Rum Raisin is the best ice cream flavor.

That's what I'm gonna say.

[00:26:42] Tony Chopp: Gross.

[00:26:42] Richard Gaffin: freaking stand by that. Actually. I do. It's delicious. I, I, I like Grandma flavors. That's my favorite.

[00:26:47] Luke Austin: after Daiquiri Ice. After Daiquiri Ice,

[00:26:49] Richard Gaffin: There you go.

[00:26:50] Luke Austin: I'd, buy

[00:26:50] Richard Gaffin: Cherries Jubilee. There you go. All right. Cool folks. Well, all right. That's gonna do it for us. Remember, I'll say it one last time. If you want your questions answered on the pod, you just call us.

You leave us a voicemail, 8 6 6 DTC 2 2 6 3 or shoot us a text there and we might read your question on a subsequent episode. So for Tony, the chopper chop and for Luke, the weatherman. Austin, I'm Richard, the Professor Gaffin signing off. We'll see y'all later.