What Founders Struggle With Most: Human Connection Over Data

[00:00:00] Richard Gaffin: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Ecommerce Playbook Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Gaffin, Director of Digital Product Strategy here at Common Thread Collective. And we're joining you today for a rare Friday episode. So everything's going to be a little loose here, but I'm joined of course, by Mr. Taylor Holiday.

He's the CEO here at Common Thread, and Taylor, you got again, another episode, a new background for you. And I think on previous episodes, we've talked through what's behind you, but for those of us who are watching, what what's, what's going on back there?

[00:00:26] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, so I told you guys, we're going to keep improving it. We're working on the setup here. So we have. A number of objects. We've got a few more coming here, but we've got your twin, Jeremy Allen, white from the bear autograph photo. That was a gift from one of our employees to shout out to Sean for that.

The bear has been a big inspiration for me. And for CTC, we've used a lot of metaphors, gotten to go to ever done some cool things. So it's like cool inspiration there. This was a gift from joy Sharma who runs our CTC global accelerator. It's a It's got a Yankees logo on it and it says family, dad, CEO premise, which is sort of a joke because I say the word premise a lot.

is the the carrot seed, which is the best book on entrepreneurship ever written. If you haven't read it, it's 10 pages meant for little kids, but best book on entrepreneurship ever. And then this is our growth map, which was a gift for my 40th birthday from employees, which is sort of the foundation for our profit system, a giant spreadsheet.

That's sort of like, my life's work, maybe he'd 

say so. So that's just some fun objects that I identify with. We've got a few more coming here, but yeah, we're, we're making progress on the background, I 

[00:01:29] Richard Gaffin: Yeah.

Yeah. Someday I'm going to

improve from the

absolute chaos that's behind me right now.

But, uh, so let's

For this episode, what we wanted to talk about was recently we had the

opportunity to hang out with some some of our clients, get in person with some of them and kind of get up kind of, front and center with their experiences.

So I think what we wanted to talk about today was obviously we talk a lot about the data side of this business. We've talked a lot about AI in the past, but what we want to talk about today is like the human side of entrepreneurship and some of your observations, Taylor, from some of those in person meetings around what people are struggling with.

On a human level, but then also the things that kind of bring them life. And get them excited about the work that they're doing, that sort of thing. So why don't you give us a little bit of background on kind of what you're thinking with this?

[00:02:14] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, you know, every time. We do this, we bring together clients and our employees and we put together a content map and we you know, try and create some social gatherings and different things to spend time together. I'm always reminded of the humanity of this business. And so often I really try to boil it down to.

As much objectivity as possible, where I can provide an analysis of information in a way that is rooted in my best available truth. You'll hear me use this phrase a lot, and that's often tends towards the numerical, it tends towards the logical. And that's sort of, I think it reflects a lot of how I try and construct my understanding of the world through that lens a lot.

And when I get together with people like this, I tend to be reminded of how much that, or how little. That world view actually plays into most people's decision making and how much more of it is relational and Human in the sense that people are not making decisions just on, on logic. There's a lot in the pot about why they're doing what they're doing and also what they need and want from me as a service provider.

And in particular, so we, so the way this sort of showed up is we had all these sessions that we sort of allowed people to opt into. And when they were given the choice of which ones they wanted to go to, like, if I had guessed beforehand about which sessions they were going to attend and then which ones they actually attended, I would have been like almost inversely incorrect.

Like I would have been right in the exact opposite direction versus what they chose. And then also watching them interact with each other was just, again, great reminders about what really people want often is a community connection. And to feel okay, or that they aren't alone in their decisions and to feel supported in the journey that they're on more than they want information about how to make a better decision.

[00:04:08] Richard Gaffin: So, I mean, let's give, or dig into some specifics, maybe like, what, what were the types of things that people were less interested than you thought they would be in and what things were people more interested in?

[00:04:19] Taylor Holiday: So as an example the primary problem that a lot of people face right now is related to the allocation of their media dollars and how to think about marketing measurement. And so I look at their businesses and I go, the thing you should care about most is getting clarity on information for how to make that decision better.

And so we had sessions on our marketing measurement roadmap. It's a tool we've developed called PAM. And it was the lowest attended or signed up for session. And the highest attended session was actually something led by Dane, our head of employee performance and development here at CDC about team development.

And so that was an example where what people really wanted to talk about was Probably the thing that they feel the most weight for, which is humans and all the, all the people in their org that they care about and how to handle some of the things they're struggling with as it relates to that feels the weightiest to them.

It actually feels more weighty than the ad performance. I think in, in, in their emotional and lived experience. Even though I think they might be more connected to each other than people realize, but, but in terms of their lived reality, I think that feels heavier on their head all the time. And I can, I can step back and think like, oh yeah, that's true.

If I thought I was on the verge of layoffs, the part I would feel the most weight towards might be actually more human than business or, and not that they're all on the verge of layoffs, but, or, or if I was struggling with growth and hiring or an issue with my leader, like that might be very present in my mind, even more so than.

The Google ads account, which I probably never look at it as a CEO, 

you know, so there's just those little reminders of what is actually experientially happening for people is not directly correlated to what's happening financially inside of the organization or on a direct day to day business impact.

The, the actual lived experience is something different than 

[00:06:00] Richard Gaffin: hmm. Well, I still, you kind of alluded to then like the connection between those two things. So, cause yeah, I guess there's, there's an argument to be made that sort of handling that, like the team building, team management piece Directly informs the, your ability to actually go out and tackle, let's say the, the ad incrementality piece or whatever the case may be. So maybe, yeah, talk a little bit more about the connection between those two things.

[00:06:23] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, I think that, I think that's probably right, is that in order maybe to think Clearly, or to get to the kinds of decisions that are made purely on an objective financial layer. I probably do need to solve for some of the emotional turmoil I'm experiencing in a way to create the clarity to think that way.

Or also to just acknowledge like I'm reminded my wife and I had this discussion last night. Stay with me. This is gonna take a second. 

My daughter was going through something in school and she, she was upset because she felt like she might behind be behind on her reading points. And so my wife was coming to me And sharing an experience.

And as she's talking, I'm starting to realize that part of what she's sharing is a feeling about her own potential failure as a parent, because my daughter is behind on a thing or whatever it might be. And the whole time I'm sort of like talking very. Logically about the path forward to solving the deficit in my daughter's reading points.

And like, I'm like, this is like very simple. We'll just identify the gap and we'll build the number of books she needs to read. And we'll set out time in the next week for reading it. But, and it was just like going past her and I couldn't, I couldn't figure out like, why are you not, why is this like, we'll just solve it.

We'll just build a plan and we'll solve it. And what she needed first was like me to sit with her in the feeling of inadequacy. She had about being a parent, even though she's not feeling as a parent at all, but that was what she was feeling in the moment. And there was actually no capacity to move towards the planning and execution state stage until I met her in that sentiment.

And I actually think this is, In many cases, what's happening inside of a business for a founder is that they need somebody to create safety or security or community for them to process their sense of inadequacy or failure. And that might not be the exact emotion, but some version of that or confusion or fear or worry or whatever it is.

They can move to the decision making, but they're in a mental spiral about all these things. Am I doing it right? Is it wrong? What should I do? I mean, this is fear. And out of that state, they can't make decisions clearly. And so what, what the Dane conversation represents, or even the other session that I think people got a lot of, we just put a bunch of CEOs in a room and have them talk with each other, not us them with each other.

And that sense of like, Camaraderie, I think reminded you, I'm not alone. Like, I'm not crazy. This is other people experience this too. And so it's kind of like, Oh, okay. I can step through this door. I don't have to hide from this sense that I'm like bad or, or really, you know, fearful. And so I think there's this, there's this emotional experience happening and this is something I struggle all the time with my wife is just like trying to get to the solution too fast.

And in some ways, I think I'm doing the same thing in these settings is I'm trying to get to the solution too fast, and I'm not sitting in the experience enough with people to get them feeling safe and secure to make 

[00:09:17] Richard Gaffin: Hmm. You mentioned the session with all the CEOs kind of sitting with each other. And almost, it sounds like commiserating, but what are like any specific sort of nuggets that came out of that in terms of like

what they're struggling with, what the topics of conversation were,

[00:09:33] Taylor Holiday: well, so we, we started with just like throwing out a question and then. Asking, we started talking about like compensation for your employees, like executive compensation. And then one person would say something and then someone else would be like, Oh yeah, I had that issue. And then what happens is like, they're all sitting there and they know they have an issue.

And that issue is like kind of secret and it's kind of embarrassing. And you're not sure if I say it, am I going to like reveal that I'm the dumbest person in the room? And. But then once someone else says that you like grant permission, then it's like, Oh yeah, I did that too. Oh, this is a common thing. Oh, I'm not a moron.

Oh, this is like part of the journey. And then you actually feel safer. You feel like, Oh, maybe if I shared my decisions more often, I could get feedback and help and I wouldn't be laughed at. And I wouldn't be like sort of, persecuted or what your, your mind does crazy things about people. Sort of the hidden secrets of your world and what people might do.

If they found out that like, you're an idiot who overpays people sometimes or underpays people or makes really bad decisions with your money. And so getting into a space where other people are sharing good ideas and bad ideas, it just sort of like takes the air out of it. And then we can get to the root of what's happening inside of your thing.

And we can actually work together to move forward. But first we have to actually build structural safety for you to reveal it. And so I think that's what happens in a setting like that.

[00:10:54] Richard Gaffin: what so for the sake of our listeners, if you can, like who, who may themselves be worried that they're morons, but in fact, aren't like, what, what were some examples of some of those things where people were like, Oh my God, I struggled with that too. That came out of that session.

[00:11:07] Taylor Holiday: So the big one with employee comp is that there's this tension where people both really want to offer people good compensation and then also sometimes do it and are really disappointed in the satisfaction that employees feel when they give it to 

them. 

[00:11:22] Richard Gaffin: Yeah,

[00:11:23] Taylor Holiday: So, so it's like a lot, there's a lot of like, we had a bonus plan and then we gave it and nobody really cared or they left anyways.

And then there, and then as the owner whose money it ultimately is, you're like, why would I do that? And so then you take away the bonus plan and then people get upset. And so there's this, there's this really fine line to try and thread of how do I create an incentive program that both gets people excited, improves the overall business and actually like satiates their like desire on the other side.

So they feel. They feel a sense of gratitude towards the organization or, or are, are, are like really satisfied with the company in that way. And people try a lot of things in the name of that. And. What I'll say is oftentimes, it sounds really bad to say you took away something from employees. And so in a room though, where you're like, yeah, we tried this and it didn't work, and people didn't seem to care.

And so I was like, why would I do that? And then so we stopped. Well, what happened when you stopped? Okay, well this, okay, we're thinking about stopping too. Like that thought that you're having in your head, that might be a little like, is this cruel and mean? Am I selfish? Am I greedy? Like it, it just is a space to go like, well, this is the thing I'm thinking about doing.

What would be the implication of it? And I think that's an example where. People have tried so many different ways. One of the things you'll notice is that comp programs are wildly variable across the board in terms of how they happen. And so it's a topic that often, and there's like, there's the sense that you might be doing something illegal, even like there's like liability associated with it and there's different, and so you're always trying to figure out, like, what, what is actually okay here.

And so I think those kinds of spaces just allow people to process and not that we're like telling them exactly what to do, but just gives them a forum to chat with other people. 

[00:13:02] Richard Gaffin: So I'm curious about, like, this is, I think, a fascinating topic to dig into a little bit more. Just this idea that, like, comp, comp can't satisfy, but it has to be there as well, obviously. Or it has to grow. So what, what were some of the conclusions that were drawn there? Maybe, what are some of your experiences with Addressing that very, very difficult and like superhuman question.

[00:13:26] Taylor Holiday: yeah, it's, it's, it's a really hard one. And what I said that I've done is that I think there's been this tension back and forth between the idea that what you want is sort of, a compensation, a quality structure by which every person is compensated the same. And it's sort of. Really. Systematized and clear and everybody's sort of on this equal playing field.

And I think that's really hard because humans just inherently desire different things and have different needs. And so I've probably moved pretty far the other way into sort of much more individualized compensation programs, but in terms of, so I don't know that we reached a conclusion other than to share what happened when we did X, Y, or Z.

So what you're doing in that setting is actually exactly what I think what I was describing as the benefit is you're not offering an answer you're offering shared experience. And so you're allowing people to gather more data. Without trying to tell them exactly what to do and then entrusting them to go make good decisions on the behalf of their organization.

Whereas too often as a service provider, I think it's like, here's the end result solution. And whether it's right or wrong, you've, you've missed the bridge of inviting them on the personal experiential journey to share consensus with the idea versus just receive it as a mandate. And even as the expert.

And not that we are on this specific topic, but I think about this in the same way with media dollars or anything else. If I just say like, just do this, just do it, just do it, just do it. Even if I'm right, it doesn't matter if the person hasn't been brought into shared understanding in a way that they genuinely agree with why we're doing what we're doing.

And that's the part that I hate. I wish I could skip 

over. But, but I think it's just, it's just, that's an example where like, if I actually wanted to try and move them all towards a consensus on an idea about comp, I would have first had to do that which was not to try and actually assert anything just to say, let's talk about it because what it would highlight is, Oh yeah, we are all really variable, man.

This is hard. I am confused. Maybe I could use some help or ideas about this. Like, it just actually builds that process of getting to being receptive to a specific idea.

[00:15:36] Richard Gaffin: Well, that's interesting because so you mentioned at the top, like that maybe the limits of logic as a tool to convince people or to bring people into that

understanding, but what we're still talking about is understanding. And so there's something about the emotional aspect of this, or including that that actually brings people into buy in and maybe

[00:15:56] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, it's funny. So I think a great, a great comparison here is that one of the things that you'll see all the time. And even right now, I think this is happening is like people yelling, like, where's their policies? Where's their 

policies? Why don't they share more policies? And I think the people who run these campaigns know something, which is that nobody gives a shit about policies.

And so this is sort of like, I'm the policy yeller is sometimes going like, look at our system, look at the measurement, look at the thing. And what the great politicians realize is that that's not how humans do things. Make decisions usually is they don't evaluate policy frameworks. They make emotional decisions based on things they feel.

And so I think, I think what's happening in the same, when I get into these settings, I'm reminded of how humans make decisions and why they do what they do is very rarely because they read through the policies and aligned them to my interests in a way that it was like a deep, thorough evaluation of how the country's economic policies are going to work.

Like nobody votes that way. Like even if they tell you they do, they probably don't, you know, like the vast, vast majority. And that's why. Whether it's Donald Trump or Kamala Harris, like don't spend time trying to, to, to get on CNN and tell you all about their policies because they know after years of research, they have really smart people helping them.

But that's not actually what's going to motivate you to make a decision anyways, so you can yell for it all you want, but unfortunately, that's not why you're doing what 

[00:17:24] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, totally. It's interesting. Before we, before we get off the, the topic of the CEOs all being in a room together, I did want to look, were there anything else like other than a comp, let's say of the sort of like mutual problems that were shared and sort of commiserated about?

[00:17:39] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, I think there's, there's a question about equity and its value. And this is something we have a lot of experience in because we've been through an ESOP. We've also had a group of employees. Participate in buying equity from CD. So I have these various lenses of how that impacts employees and employee behavior.

Other people have profits, interest units and phantom stock and all these different ways that they've used that specific asset type to incentivize people. And so I think there was a lot of conversation about that. It was interesting because we have one person in there that runs a public company and he was talking about the challenges of having a public stock price that people can see and know if the shares that they hold are actually up or down all the time and what it feels like if they're down and how you keep them incentivized, knowing they might hold an asset that's actually not worth any money, you know, like, so, so there's these different dynamics.

I think, so that was one specific lane of conversation was just like, The distinction between cash and equity in terms of how people value those things and whether or not you should try to move them towards one or the other, or take advantage of sort of the short term ism that most people have in the way they think about their financial status and If you have a role to play in changing that, or if you just allow the person to dictate for themselves, what do you want?

And I'll just give you that, whether I think it's good for you or not. I don't really care. And there's sort of like these very libertarian views versus more, I would say, I don't know if it's socialist, but more like I have a role to play in inviting you into the best thing for you versus just like, you can tell me what you want and I'll just give you that.

[00:19:15] Richard Gaffin: It's interesting, but yeah, it's, it's, it feels like the, the connecting thread here, the common thread, if you will, between everything is just like the CEOs and entrepreneurs asking, asking themselves questions and sharing problems around. How do I get people to follow me? Basically, because ultimately that that's what comp is like, how do I get people to stay?

How do I get people to feel satisfied? Same with equity which is like, you know, are they bought? Are they literally owners of the company?

Wouldn't that create a sense of ownership in them and I feel like that's, that's kind of an interesting, and also maybe. goes some of the way to explaining why people gravitated towards Daine session on team building more so than they did one on the specifics of incrementality, because the issue, the problem everybody's dealing with is problems of, like, how do I get people to buy in to what I'm doing?

[00:19:59] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. That's right. And you know, it's funny because I think oftentimes the things that a founder will value they get mad if other people don't value the same thing because it's like if I give you my most precious resource and you don't value it as much as I do, then I feel like, why did I give you my most precious resource?

But, and this goes again, these metaphors go a lot to human relationship, which is that like, yeah. Your job oftentimes in human relationship is not to say, what do I like the most? And I'll give you that thing. And then why don't you like the thing that I like the most it's to try and understand what you like and to give you that.

But that, that like that's, that's hard and it's different for every person. And so it takes a lot of energy to really go that deep into people's individual understanding. And then you're depending on someone's perspective. Personal clarity about what they actually like, which they may not know because they've never, maybe never even have had equity as an asset.

So I don't know if I like it or not. I've never had it, you know? So there's all these, there's a lot of complexity in trying to solve those kinds of 

[00:20:56] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, it's interesting. My wife and I've been talking recently about, like, the the limitations of the golden rule in relationship, which is due unto others as you'd have them do to you. And a lot of the times, like, like, I think, Maybe conflicts that we have or conflicts I have in other relationships are like, I've treated the person the way that I would like to be treated in return, but they do not want to be treated the way that I want to be treated. 

[00:21:16] Taylor Holiday: Exactly. 

[00:21:17] Richard Gaffin: as a CEO managing, you know, maybe a dozen of these relationships or a hundred of these relationships would become pretty challenging, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. 

[00:21:26] Taylor Holiday: that's, that's, there's a great tweet thread in there Richard, about the limitations of the golden rule as a, as a system of management, 

Which is, yeah, totally. Cause I think the reality is that my life. And my needs are so different than a 26 year old single person. And so like what I want and need is very different than what they want and need.

And so it's one thing to apply that rule to someone you have a lot of deep shared life with where maybe your sort of shared interests are defined and united in a way, but even then it has limitations, but between me and people with very different lives than me, it would make a lot of sense that we would want and need different 

[00:22:00] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. All right. So let's, let's talk about, I mean, obviously. So we can't draw conclusions, but let's, let's maybe point at, but maybe particularly from your experience, from some of the discussions that you had, what, what do you feel is like? In your experience, anyway, the most effective way to approach this subject of like caring for the emotional piece, caring for the personal piece before you then bring them into the sort of more logical

[00:22:25] Taylor Holiday: Yes. Yeah. I think you have to, whether you're a service provider, whether you're CEO, working with your employees, you have to get a sense for, is someone ready to receive the plan? Like, are they ready to move to the action state? Or are they still in the state where they need to commiserate or connect emotionally on the difficulty of the problem?

And maybe we rush a little bit too fast to the second one. And this is another thing I've noticed, like right now, a lot of what we're doing at CDC, I'm describing it as like installing a new hard drive into organizations, like giving them an entirely new decision making framework for how they operate.

And some people are not ready for that. 

[00:23:08] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. 

[00:23:09] Taylor Holiday: and when they're not ready, it's almost impossible for us to do it to be successful. We actually just like running all this resistance and they want us to kind of still behave like they've been behaving. And we're like, no, we have a system. And then it sort of like becomes this middle thing that doesn't actually serve either party.

And so, I think that alternatively, there are people that come to us and they're just ready for something new and they're completely moved through their own realization of dissatisfaction and they're now ready to act. And. I think you just got to be conscious of where someone's at. And it's very hard to move to the planning and execution stage.

If someone hasn't yet gotten to and through the emotional experience of accepting that there's a problem, you know, it's sort of like, honestly, the metaphor I use a lot is dealing with addiction is that you cannot move someone to solution for addiction. If they haven't moved through acceptance of the problem, like, and In some ways there's a, there's a sitting in that, that you have to wait and be patient for.

You can't just come in and start offering them the solution. It's like a useless exercise.

[00:24:16] Richard Gaffin: So how do you tune into, or like what are, what are telltale signs or whatever the case may be that somebody is like on the cusp of, or maybe, but it is, it's more about telling the difference between somebody who's just dug in and will not change versus somebody where you feel like you can move them towards. Acceptance of the problem and then have them move towards a solution. Like, how do you distinguish that?

[00:24:38] Taylor Holiday: One of the honest indications is like the transparency with which they share the information is when someone comes in, it's like here, here it is. That tends to be a signal that they're ready and inviting Open and honest feedback about where they're at. If it's hard to get the information or they kind of hide it or they ask why I need it, then it tends to be like, okay, this is a first sign that sharing this information is not going to be something that's easy.

That tends to be an initial thought. The other will be how much curiosity that they have about the things that are happening versus this defensive justification for why they're doing what they're doing. So, and that often has a lot to do with who I'm talking to in the organization and how much of their own risk is associated with the current actions.

So we talked about this a lot where one of the hardest things to overcome is that if the person I'm speaking with is on the line for the action, for the problems that might've been created, then all of the interactions. Are spent with them justifying why, what happened happened. And I often don't actually care.

Like I, I'm not interested in knowing why you spent money that way. I just want to change it, go forward. But there's a lot of time spent in explaining, no, no, no. This is why this is happening and why it might be good and why we're still. And so you're in this like justification circle where somebody's at risk.

So that, that tends to be another big problem related to decision making. So, versus like. Also, there's a real human cost to a lot of these decisions that we have to make with people. And so are they ready to do that? Are they in a position of authority to do that? So that can be another, another piece of it as well.

[00:26:13] Richard Gaffin: Well, kind of the, the, the last thing you mentioned there, like kind of plays into that discussion that we had earlier or on the last episode, I guess it was that what we did together, where we talked about creating a scenario or rather, sorry, creating an organization where failure is accepted and failure is safe.

Can be, sounds like it'd be like an incredible tool towards building the sort Trust with somebody that then would allow them to change. If you say, we're going to throw this all out, but it's not on you. You're okay. Can you come join us in this new

[00:26:44] Taylor Holiday: Well, and the only person that can actually start with that safety is the person who is actually safe, which is the owner of the company. They're the only ones that can actually start the cascade of that. And so they actually have to step forward in the scenario and go, man, if all of my people were making bad decisions around capital allocation, my fault.

I didn't give you the right directives and targets and I didn't hold our organization accountable to it. And so the change is going to start with me. I declare that I failed at that. And we're going to now go forward. And I'm invite you into a participation of a new system with new boundaries. But if that person wants to still point fingers at, like, I don't know why the media person was doing that, or if the CFO is like, yeah, marketing's been really overspending, it's also another signal to me that like, oh, this isn't going to work because it was actually your fault.

It was actually the person most in charge is fault. This all happened. And I have a couple of CEOs that have like really accepted that. And now that doesn't mean they aren't going to hold their people accountable to a new set of actions. And if they don't do it, decide like, Hey, you're not going to be the right person for the job, but they're not going to hold, like, A bunch of people accountable for expectations they didn't have.

And so I think that's that's where it has to start to create that safety because really, the truth is, there's only one person that's safe. And that's the person that can't be fired. Everyone else. They're not actually safe. They're really not. And it's important to to acknowledge that that there's a real risk to them personally to declaring that they failed.

So you have to, you have to work through that,

[00:28:06] Richard Gaffin: cool. Well, any, anything else that you want to hit on this topic?

[00:28:12] Taylor Holiday: I would just say, if you don't have. For yourself, a group of people to talk with, whether as an agency owner or anything else. And I don't have a peer group thing to sell. I don't run Hampton with Sam par or whatever else it might be. And I'm not saying it's even that, but I just think that having a space.

To use, but here's my encouragement for you. I actually think that what I see a lot with those groups is they use them for tactics. Don't use them for tactics. I actually think that peer group would be like a really poor way to get to tactical decision making because all of those brand owners have such a narrow brand owners.

In my experience, and I love you all. You actually extrapolate your personal experience way too much onto other people. And your experience is really narrow and really dangerous to be applied specifically. So what I would use that group for. Would be to create a sense of shared experience to gather more information and to remind yourself that you're not alone and that you're not crazy and that these decisions are hard.

I would find that and I would use it for that way. It's an emotional support group. And I know that sounds a little woo woo and whatever, but I really think it's the most effective thing that friends and peers can do for you.

[00:29:20] Richard Gaffin: Makes sense. All right, folks. Well, I think that'll do it for us for this week. Appreciate y'all tuning in and we will talk to you next week. Goodbye.