25 Predictions for Ecommerce in 2025

[00:00:00] Richard Gaffin: Hey folks, welcome to a special holiday edition of the Ecommerce Playbook Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Gaffin, Director of Digital Product Strategy here at Common Thread Collective. And of course, showing off his, you had me at EBITDA ugly Christmas sweater is our CEO, Taylor Holiday. And by the way, I'm also wearing a matching one.

There you go. Thank you to admission member, Matt with the brand TB4A. If there's an accountant in your life or a finance enthusiast like Taylor who would be interested in some gear like this, go check them out, tb4a.com. And So anyway, here we are in our ugly Christmas sweaters talking about what's coming up in 2025.

So Taylor, how are you doing today? What's going on?

[00:00:37] Taylor: Well, I'm at home. You guys can see my background. If you're on YouTube not my usual setting in the office. I also don't have a microphone. So our office was robbed last week. And they, they, they did, they did away with my microphone and my headphones. So I'm back on the air pods, temporary technical malfunction, and so if the audio is a little bad blame crime, the rising crime of California, you know, it just fits very well. 

And everyone's there. So, but I'm, I'm good, man. I'm recovering a little from a chest cold. I do love my sweater. These kill it a family Christmas. People have no idea what I'm talking about and just sort glaze their eyes glaze over pretty quick, but it makes me feel good.

[00:01:13] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, there you go. All right. So What we're talking about today is, and this is something I believe we did last year, maybe even the year before, but on Twitter and LinkedIn, excellent LinkedIn, you dropped your 25 predictions for 2025. And look, I'm not going to say it ignited a firestorm, but it certainly brought a lot of comments with people sort of interested in expanding on some of these.

So if you're interested in reading the full list we're going to have the link to the post in the show notes. If you want to check it out. Because we're not going to get into all 25 today, but we are going to jump into five of them, which I think are sort of the most interesting or garnered the most conversation.

So let's start with, with item number one in, in your 25 predictions for 2025, which is that media buying becomes 98 percent automated. So yeah, expand on that a little bit more, by the way, I was going to, what percentage do you think it's at now? And then what's the 2 percent leftover

[00:02:02] Taylor: That's a great question. So this kind of content is just like, it's like kindling for social It's just like so perfectly built for people to engage and argue about. And what I would say is that you're undoubtedly going to see a slew of these into the next couple of weeks. And they're fun.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. But the biggest thing to remember is that, like, what people really believe is best displayed by their behavior than by their their words. And I think in this topic in particular, I think we have an alignment around both. So if the first three predictions there really relate to what I, an experience I'm having is it relates to how media buying is handled.

And, you know, at CDC, we're big proponents of using cost controls, which is a form of automation, right? It's an, it's assigning an input to a machine to allow them to operate against An objective that you define. So the manual part is you defining the objective and then the automated part is allowing the system to make the allocation decisions within it.

And I think inherent in that is what I really believe is happening here. And that's that. I think that. Almost all media, manual media buying, and I'm going to define manual media buying as the decisions media buyers make to turn on or off ads to raise or lower budgets and to adjust bids up and down or to change bid objectives are almost.

All net negative like this. This is what I see is that whether it's and I mean this for our own decision making as well. My decision making in and out account. Personally, when I participated to CDC media buyers to media buyers and other agencies to media buyers in house, almost anything humans do in this process is really it.

Negative and negatively affects the outcome in the vast majority of cases. And it's because the decision making process is so poor in terms of the information inputs, the horizons that you're using, the calculations that you use to determine how connected they are to causal impacts on the future.

It's just really messy. And it's really hard to execute and it's riddled with emotion and bias. And I think if you see what's happened in. Like, investing as a, as a corollary for what I think it's going to happen in media buying is that you went from sort of like manual stock picking to developing indexes that sort of diversify risk to now like algorithmic hedge fund trading.

And I think media buying is really not too dissimilar from that as a practice, which is that you are buying. Inventory on different ad platforms against a thesis of future return on investment. And that is an exercise is sort of really predisposed to being done super effectively through algorithmic trading software.

And I think what we're going to see is more and more movement towards. That kind of control and systems across media buying. If you think about what an MMM is trying to do, it's, it's allowing a human to get a read on a channel level allocation of budget based on efficiency. And I think all you're going to see is like, rather than then those kinds of systems, just outputting results that then humans make decisions on is that you're just going to see those kinds of systems make the decisions themselves.

And that's going to be for the best. And so I think we're going to see more and more. Not just at the individual channel level. In other words, not just on meta, but with your entire media budget across all available ad inventory against some business objective machines sort of handling day to day allocation and budget optimization.

[00:05:35] Richard Gaffin: Okay. So, so let's go back to one of my original questions then, which was where you think the percentage is right now in terms of machine to human?

[00:05:42] Taylor: Yeah. So if you think about that the very, the most manual version of this would be like Placing an IO manually and then search an order against a very specific book of inventory like that's old school, right? That's like the least automated is I'm going to write a purchase for a specific amount of money for a specific fixed CPM against a specific set of inventory.

And then I'm going to wait weeks, realize that value that was like the very beginning of this spectrum. We've moved a long ways away from that, right? If you think about what P max is an example, represents it, it represents a bundling. Of all of the available ad inventory on a single platform like Google.

So it takes your display, your YouTube, your search, your shopping, bundles it into one and allocates across those resources. Same thing with something like ASC on Meta, where you get Instagram feed, Facebook news feed, IG stories. IG reels all bundled into one ad product that you're then allowing meta to handle the allocation across it. Then you get into some of the dynamic creative asset stuff where you're allowing headline variation tests and image variation tests to be handled automated. So you're seeing this progression. So in terms of a percentage, I don't know, maybe 35 percent is automated. in a way, but you're seeing progression towards it every day where more and more of the tasks are being automated away.

And then the big one for me is just like, there's a huge time suck related to literally just building out campaigns. And for those of you that are media buyers, this is like literally going into ads manager, clicking a bunch of buttons to construct a campaign. The actual campaign, same thing on Google.

In other words, that is, that stuff's just going to go away. It's just, it's just such a waste of time for humans to be doing it. It's literally just button clicking across a bunch of different options at the campaign level, at the ad set level, at the ad level, uploading images, those kinds of things. That's going to be a big chunk of it.

That takes you from 30 to 60%, because so much of the work is just, you know, In that area and then the tail of it is probably then to move out from an individual channel into broader cross channel budget application and then ultimately the creative function. And so those pieces, I think, are what are next on the spectrum of automation.

[00:07:47] Richard Gaffin: So then let's talk about like, what, what does the 2 percent look like What's what's left for a human to do media buying side.

[00:07:54] Taylor: Yeah, I think there's still some representation of inventory. And product and value that and business objective that still at the very end are fundamentally human decisions. And I also think there's a data layer related to the product inventory side that I don't see these platforms integrating with.

Yet and I don't think it'll be this year, so I think that humans are gonna have to represent the available inventory. They're gonna have to represent the business objective and they're gonna still have to represent the creative choices that are being made to some degree for some brands. So I think somewhere in there is the last and 2 percent is sort of arbitrary.

It could be 10%. It could be something like that. But there's still this like last piece of there's a data layer missing from the systems. There's a very human decision about, are we trying to grow fast or slow? What's the overall objective that you're asking the system to deliver? And then some portion of the creative piece that's still going to be very human.

[00:08:52] Richard Gaffin: Okay. So let's jump to the next one then that we want to talk about today. Which is, this was item number eight on the list and I'll read it out here. There's an omni channel digital brand product layer that sits on top of Shopify, Amazon, Walmart, Ulta, TikTok shops, et cetera, to manage your brand poses a real threat to Shopify.

Unless they can get there first. So that's a lot of people had kind of questions or wanted clarification on that. So let's unpack that a

[00:09:17] Taylor: Yeah, it's going to be the hardest one for me to explain what I see in my head here, but I think Shopify, if you think about what it was originally, it was a website builder. Like it was a way to build an e commerce website and transact, right? And so there was a lot of templates and design and thinking about your com experience associated with Shopify.

And what I see as a trend, and I think this is another one of my points in there is that com As a point of transaction for businesses is diminishing importance. And so with it, then it would be any layer that is specifically associated with it. And what I see instead is that there's this digital omni channel approach to omni channel often includes retail, but I'm actually going to set aside physical retail in this conversation for a second and say that what I see is between Amazon, which is the, I think the big behemoth in this conversation.

Your. com social commerce products like TikTok shops, Meta shops, YouTube shops as important layers. Something has to think about allocating inventory across all of those channels. Some thing has to think about how media is affecting performance across all those channels. Something has to bundle your revenue view every day from across all those channels and allow you to make decisions.

About your business at a broader point of view. And I think that this is one of the limitations. Shopify has these like integrations that are like, they try and turn all those things into channel views. And so they're trying to bundle them together, but they still don't do it very well. Like Amazon in particular is not integrated very seamlessly into your storefront view.

And I think that. Something could do this in a way that I know that what our customers want and what's really happening in spreadsheets is they're taking all these different revenue sources. They're trying to compile them into a single point of view. Now, someone might be just like yelling, like, Taylor, this is just like what an ERP system does or, you know, like in a way that is why this is such a big problem.

And I agree, but I do think that there's a customer centric view that actually thinks about this as a U. I. That helps you as an operator. Think about where your customers are and shows you it in a novel way that I think is an opportunity. And this sort of underlies a bigger philosophical belief I have, which is that The transaction layer will always move closer to the discovery layer over time. And if I, if I explain this for a second, if you think about ultimately what retail was, wasn't it retail for, for many people was a bringing together of that, the discovery and transaction layer into the same spot, right? It was like, you'd go to the store, you'd find the products you actually went to. The mall to find out about about brand to discover new things.

And then ultimately you could transact right there. Well, what happened first was that the discovery layer got bifurcated. Like the first discovery moved into the social networks of the world. Right. And then all of a sudden the online thing was an attempt to bring back the transaction layer to the point of discovery, which had moved online.

And now. Even just the gap between discovery on TikTok or meta or Google or somewhere else. And then the steps required to get the transaction on your website is too far. It's too cumbersome still. And so what you see TikTok shops, what it represents is they like merging of those layers again to transaction and discovery, all happening at the same point.

Amazon buying And interacting with media on the front end and bringing black Friday promotion into a TV shows where you can transact on things you see in the TV shows. It's like this merging of discovery and transaction is what's happening. And really a website is just like a place you'd have to go.

That's a longer step and an unnecessary step for a transaction layer. I think that's moving closer to discovery. So that's like a philosophical point of view I have on the future of commerce that I think it minimizes. And makes the dot com sort of feel like retail. It feels like a place you'd have to go that I don't necessarily need to go if I want to buy something. 

[00:13:24] Richard Gaffin: So this feels like it's sort of a combination of things. One is the continuing, like I guess, perpetuation of things like TikTok shops, whatever, bringing the transaction closer to the point of discovery. But then also it's like some sort of tool or dashboard or whatever to manage or view all of these sort of revenue streams at the same time, which currently doesn't seem like it really exists.

And I know that's like a little bit of what we're trying to do with the profit system which we talked about a couple of weeks ago,

[00:13:48] Taylor: right. Because because all these points of distribution have different margin values, right? Because each platform is taking a different fig. And so trying to get to a view of like your revenue and the marginal value of that revenue on a daily basis across all these different sources is really complicated for people.

And so I think there's an opportunity here that sort of takes it. And gives you a view of your digital revenue every day and then sort of comprises it down into source and then also allows you to look at and understand that in a really seamless, clear, cool way. That's going to be really powerful.

Then I think there's a UI yet to be developed here that I think is going to be something that, that emerges over the next year or so.

[00:14:28] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, cool. All right. Let's speaking of Well, I guess sort of speaking of platforms let's jump into number 10 here. And this is, I think the, the item that, that created the most controversy, let's say in the comments anyway, which was number 10 was Applovin fades into a small percentage of media budgets.

And so this is interesting in light of like the conversation we had on Applovin a few weeks ago, and then additional data that we've put out on it is that there is, seems to be genuine incremental value to Applovin. It seems like it's potentially a huge opportunity in the way other, New platforms have not been.

So what's the is this a one 80 on app loving or, or what exactly are, is your prediction here or, or why would happen?

[00:15:06] Taylor: Yeah, no, I don't, I don't think it's a one 80. I think it's a. enthusiasm that I think is the Internet's having is that I believe that the fundamental problem to be solved for most advertising platforms in order to steal meaningful share of wallet

[00:15:26] Richard Gaffin: Mm

[00:15:26] Taylor: to solve for incremental positive new customer acquisition at the end of the day.

And I don't see good evidence that Apple ovens doing that at scale. What I see is in a lot of cases, That there is some amount of positive incremental contribution to be had across new and returning customers. But what I see is very quickly absent any exclusions presently budget that begins to very quickly concentrate into remarketing and existing customers.

And could potentially be driving incremental value there. But the problem is that fatigues very quickly for most brands. And so what I see is. A demand influx of a lot of brands that want to spend in this channel. And I don't know about the supply expansion potential. And I just don't know about how much the, I have not seen a lot of good data about brands spending a ton of money and driving profitable new customer acquisition at continued growing scale.

So what I see is a channel that will be a part of the media mix. At some small percentage, it may improve over time, but the idea that it's going to rival meta scale, I just, I do not believe that at all. And so I think that's what we're going to see is that in this period in particular, Q4, there's a lot of demand captured.

That is an important part of driving value for brands. But that is not the case as we move out of this period. Of gift giving and, and demand realization. And so I probably am more bearish than most on how much budget is going to end up in this channel.

[00:17:01] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. And if I'm remembering our conversation correctly, part of this might be, it's like, what, what are the odds that there's genuine. discovery to be had on this app or whatever, like there's truly a new market or new people you wouldn't be reaching otherwise on, let's say meta in, in app load.

[00:17:20] Taylor: Yeah, I just, I find it, it doesn't make any sense to me. Like this, there's like a very high overlap between the user bases here in a way that you're, that you're literally taking the same ads and serving them to the same people. Now, if the demographics are wildly different than that's interesting, and that seems to be the case, but that also is a little bit of a red flag that, like, let's say you're a business that your core demographic is like men age 30 and suddenly you, like, for a moment, unlock a bunch of people. Older women as a demographic in a gifting period. Like, why does that seem sustainable into the future for who your brand is? I just don't, I don't really understand that. So I think there's a lot still to be proven here. We're excited. I like, I'm hopeful that it continues to scale. We're spending money there.

We're going to help our people do it. I think there's a lot to be gained on the product side in terms of innovation in terms of what they put, what, what kind of product features they roll out, but. Yeah, I just, I don't, I think we need to look at these things clear eyed and with good data and evidence that you can drive the kind of outcomes for your business that you want.

And we're in the process of continuing to discover that more so than I'm like, yes, this is for sure a gold rush.

[00:18:34] Richard Gaffin: So let's, that's actually kind of lets us segue nicely into number 19, which is the next one we wanted to talk about, which was the idea here that new customer obsession. Fades a bit. So we're talking about Apple 11 is potentially being a poor way to to acquire new customers. But at the same time, we're also saying new customer obsession is going to fade a bit as brands mature, they realize that monetizing their existing customers in new ways is a better business strategy than just endlessly paying more for new ones.

And then you have an example from simple modern. So let's let's dig into that a little bit.

[00:19:04] Taylor: I think if you followed simple, modern, modern, recent launch of Trevia, Trevi, Trevi. Fountain. Yeah. Trophy. They launched a consumable like liquid IB competitor. And if you listen to Mike Beckham talk about it, what he says is that the maturity of the hard good water bottle business has growth limitations.

It's not to say that it's not going to grow in the future. It's just to say that like the LTV on that business is really poor. And. There's ultimately their distribution is already so large that the percentile growth in the future is like going to be more moderate than it's been in the past. It's not to say that there's not future growth, but what they have instead is like millions of customers who are using their water bottles all the time.

And so if they could turn those customers, even a small fraction of them into consumer consumers of a consumable that they would end up with a significant increase to value for the overall enterprise. And so that is, I think, a really important understanding of business strategy that I would also like into what you see someone like bridge wallet do, which is to say that when the wallet business runs into a marginal frontier problem in its new customer acquisition, the solution to that problem isn't figure out how to be better at my next ads forever.

It's to. Expanded to a new category like luggage or rings as a growth potential. Now that's not about monetizing the same customer base. My main point here is that just for a lot of businesses, the solution to their growth problem is not more efficient media dollars. Next year in the same category on the same product.

There's just, there's a real limitation to that idea. And people just pound their head against the wall, trying to constantly improve their ad performance on more ad dollars next year, when it would be way easier in some cases to look at product expansion, distribution expansion, or to start to reintroduce.

Some work around reactivation of existing customers as part of that media mix, because there are brands that have millions of customers that are hard excluding their entire customer list from their ads. And these customers haven't shopped with them in years. They are functionally not an active customer.

On the extreme end, one of the things we're considering doing is we might redefine An existing customer revenue to only be revenue from active customers. And then to put everybody else back into new, new customer acquisition and as a function, because I just don't think that the idea that you had a customer that bought from you a year ago has no longer responded to any of your emails.

Like it makes sense to hard exclude them from all your advertising.

[00:21:46] Richard Gaffin: that makes sense. Although it's ultimately like it kind of what we're saying is like in order to reach that existing customer again, as if they were new, it's necessary to develop new product or I don't know,

[00:21:58] Taylor: Yeah.

[00:21:58] Richard Gaffin: to whatever, right?

[00:21:59] Taylor: Yeah, I think to continue to evolve the product to innovate on it. And then to, to just go after reselling to them again, to re remind them about the thing that they once bought and loved with some new compelling reason. Right? And I think that is the impetus for us to think about You know, something as simple as like, what is the iPhone 13 versus 14, right?

Like there's this idea that you have to re engage your customer base all the time around the thing that you sell by continuing to improve it over time. And in doing so you can kind of reignite energy to repurchase your thing persistently, but it's very hard to have a static product that you just continue to go to market with over many, many years and continue to Just change the creative on it and get more efficient acquisition over time.

That's like a really poor business strategy.

[00:22:44] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, so to maybe incorporate this into the, the squeezing the sponge analogy that we always use and, oh, we have a visit. What's your, what's your dog's name?

[00:22:52] Taylor: That's Jack short for Jacqueline.

[00:22:54] Richard Gaffin: Oh, Jack Jack for for Jacqueline. I love it. Classy name. So basically what if we include this in the, or we incorporate into the squeezing the sponge analogy. The idea here is that you need to acquire new customers in order to maintain an active customer file or your existing customer file will shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink, shrink.

But in this case, what we're saying is that existing customer file can just be, there's a recycling element to this as

[00:23:15] Taylor: Well, there's cause there's another part of the sponge. If you think about like the net active customer report, the way to grow it is two, two different ways. One is net new customers. The second is what we call reactivation or taking lapsed customers and reactivating them. That it serves the same function as net new customer gain.

And so I think in both ways, that grows your active customer file, right? You take a customer from lapsed to active through reactivation, has the same effect as acquiring a new customer, right? And so I think both of those. Need to be thought of. And in some brands that have huge lapsed customer files, that's probably actually a period where you could increase focus and then reduce the dependency on new customer acquisition for the sake of growth of the active customer file and still be successful.

[00:24:04] Richard Gaffin: Okay. So let's, let's pivot to the next one here because this is specifically about product development or product innovation. And number 24 here on the list is product development is the new head of growth. Okay. So obviously I can see the way that it plays into the one we recently, we just discussed, but yeah, let's unpack that a little more.

Yeah.

[00:24:25] Taylor: what, if they do the calculation, they're going to find that the potential return on invested capital potential. In e commerce product development might be the highest potential return in the business. And it's way higher than ad spend in most cases. And so if you think about, again, I'm just gonna use the rich example, developing a suitcase.

And the cost to do that versus the potential category revenue realization, the, if you actually build a business case and say, I've got, okay, I could take 500, 000 and I could plow it into meta ad spend at a 20 percent annual return on invested capital, or I could take 500, 000. And invent a new product line that has a 20 million potential for me as a business.

I just think that what brands are going to see over and over again is that the math for growth on investing in new product development is going to be better than the math on growth on just deploying their next app. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in the ad spend. And so the next tranche of growth for the business is better invested in through product development than it is where they're at on their marginal frontier of ad spend.

And so I think that is, that is where the best way to grow is going to be through something new and novel added to the mix than it is just something that already exists. And I think that's what people are discovering all the time. And if you watch the best brands. Like again, everyone looks up to these operators.

It's like, watch what they've done in terms of how their growth is occurring. And I even think for hex client, you're going to see this too. Like, I just think that this is, this is what brands are doing. It's what I've watched born primitive do really well as our partner. It's what I've watched. It's what I know skull candy is doing as their growth for the future.

Like the best brands we have are looking out and not just saying, okay, CTC, our expectation is that you double our media spend at the same efficiency next year. They're going, okay. Okay. Let's get small gains out of the core business next year by maintaining same or slightly worse efficiency. And we're going to introduce this new thing that allows us to add on new tranches of growth.

It's the same thing in a service business. We don't just look out and go, okay, core business. You have to grow forever. It's here's a new line of business in the global accelerator. Here's a new line of business in retention. The same thing is true for everybody is that that is the best mechanism for growth in the next year.

So if I have somebody who's in charge of growth for my business, traditionally the head of growth doesn't get to decide the product. And that's why I've always thought it's a dumb title is because the best growth mechanisms are often related to an expansion of distribution.

[00:27:03] Richard Gaffin: So I, I was actually, so when you were talking, I just brought to mind, like, I don't know if you've, have you ever read the 22 immutable laws of branding? that book? Yeah. It's an old class. This is probably from 2001 or two or something like that. But anyway, with, with healthy skepticism around the idea that any, any of these laws are immutable.

One point that they made in that book that I've, I it's just stuck with me ever since is that like, there's, there's a very clear correlation with the frequency of new product release and the success of a business is that every business that they worked with. That was successful in some way was just because they had like a very like the cadence of product release was regular and it was frequent and that's just kind of like, it's, it's not a discussion that we have a lot in this world, but but it's, it's, it's clear why that's important.

I was going to ask like, so at this time last year, when we had this conversation, a lot of the conversation was around basically battening down the hatches, tightening costs, ensuring first order profitability, essentially. Yeah. Absolutely. But it sounds like the conversation, at least in your mind has changed.

So what about, let's say, I don't know, the macroeconomic environment or just sort of the gender environment of 2025 has you in this mindset, as opposed to thinking about cost and

[00:28:13] Taylor: That's a great question is because you can't cut your way to growth forever, right? Like, like, so there was a, there was a set of behaviors that many brands have to undergo, which is to reset the health of their business on the financial side. And like our industry needed that. And for our partners, we're actually like guiding them through that.

And so now we're getting to the other side of, okay, we're healthy now. Okay. We now have to grow against this new, healthy structure. And it's like, okay, let's go out and recreate that now. And the answer isn't to go back to what we used to do, which was trying to spend more money in the ad platforms to do it.

It's like, okay, how are we actually going to build a business that can produce continued profitable growth? And I just, I just think that what you just said is so right, is that brands that consistently produce new things, give people a reason to continue to engage with them in new ways. It's like, and it's so critical to have that as a function.

Of your business. Now, I want to be clear here that this doesn't mean like crazy wild bets on inventory across things that are not proven at all. And in many ways, sometimes the best new product is like a refined and updated version of your core products in a way that gives people a reason to buy that one, you know, but I really think that this is like, as we go now into this era of profitable growth, I'd say we're moving more into that stage with our customers who have been with us over the course of the year.

Now, for those of you that haven't reset that growth or that profit expectation, we're still here to help you guide through that. But I think the conversation, the focus in the next year is, okay, we're healthy now. Bottom line looks good. What does it look like to grow this business into the future?

[00:29:41] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, that makes sense. Cool. All right. Well, so I think that's going to cover it for, for at least our kind of going over the 25 here. But again, if you want to check out the rest of these, it's on Taylor's Twitter. It's on LinkedIn. We'll put a link in the show notes so you can check them out further, but any final thoughts here, or, or maybe let's see initial thoughts on 2025 that you kind of want to share here.

[00:30:02] Taylor: Well, I'm excited. I mean, the last one in there was a teaser to as it relates to CTC. And what I'll say is that have some really exciting things on the horizon for us as a business that involve sort of expansion of who we are and how we can interact with our customers to bring them more opportunities for this kind of thing.

We're continuing to do some really cool stuff on the AI side that I'm excited to announce. And I just think that we're in a, A really cool era of the sort of convergence of software and service and AI into bringing customers cool opportunities. And so I'm as excited about our business as I've been ever as we head into 2025.

And so hopefully we'll get to share more about this in the coming months, but we are taking the challenge ourselves to continue to introduce new products. That's what I would say. Is that we feel the same way about our business that I just shared about yours, which is that we need to bring new things to bear for our customers that help them solve problems.

And that requires us to be innovative and cause us to disrupt ourselves and to find more ways to help you all do awesome stuff into the future. And so we're embracing that challenge as well.

[00:31:07] Richard Gaffin: that's right. All right, big things coming in 2025. Thank you all for listening. Happy holidays to everybody. And of course, we will be back with you in the new year. Take care of y'all. Bye bye.

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