Secrets to Scaling Big: Inside Born Primitive

[00:00:00] Taylor Holiday: Welcome back to another episode of the Ecommerce Playbook Podcast. Today I'm joined by my longstanding friend. Now, this gentleman has been walking side by side. We've been building our businesses together for over five years. Now I'm joined today to keep building on our series of talking about product and story and brand and how I believe it is the key to growth for brands in 2025.

Today, we have Bear Handlon CEO, our CEO and Co-Founder of Born Primitive. Bear, how are you doing, man?

[00:00:31] Bear Handlon: Doing good, man. Thanks for having me. Okay. Okay.

[00:00:41] Taylor Holiday: is awesome that you should check out as well, but Bear and Born Primitive have been with CTC for a very long time. And so we've gotten the privilege of watching. Bear operate and execute an incredible brand. So I'm going to let him give you all a little bit of an intro about who is Born Primitive.

And then we're going to talk today specifically about a couple of campaigns and products that BP launched in this last year that have been transformative to their growth and are some of the best storytelling and product examples that I have seen in our entire industry. So Bear kick us off with a little bit about.

BP, who you all are. And what is the brand?

[00:01:16] Bear Handlon: Yeah, well, we're an apparel brand, started it a little over 11 years ago, just out of the garage. It was a side hustle. I was going into the Navy at the time, started with a pair of compression shorts. Had no vision for what it would be and just kind of evolved into cutting. So, you know, kind of performance active where it's at leisure and now we're doing things like flannels and jeans and tactical and outdoor and hunting and a performance shoot called the savage one.

So. Over the years we've, we've expanded categories and you know, we just, we joined, you know, Taylor, your crew, I think it was actually six years ago. I didn't know what paid advertising was at the time. We had doubled every year from the beginning. And I thought, man, maybe if we actually did some advertising, we could grow this even more.

And that opened up obviously my eyes to a whole nother world of, we were in the golden years of, of meta when we started. And we're not anymore, but we're still, of course, winning a lot on that platform and, you know, part of it is, I think what you mentioned is, is the the, the stories behind some of our product launches.

And I think we've had a realization, you know, this year, maybe more so than previous years that, you know, you really have to be honest with what is your actual value proposition in a very crowded space, right? Especially, you know, apparel, it's almost hilarious how competitive it is because there's no barrier to entry for someone to make a pair of leggings. And you know, that invites a lot of competition and everyone tries to have the best iterative ad on Instagram. And it has to be more than that because that's not enough of a value proposition to win and build something substantial over, you know, you know, extended period of time.

[00:02:47] Taylor Holiday: So, yeah, there's so much that I want to unpack. I want to go back to the beginning real fast because I think it illustrates A lot about you as a founder. One of the unique things, which is the intimate connection to the customer you're serving, because in many ways it began serving yourself. You've always been for both you and Mal, your co founder intimately participating in the community that you're serving.

So you've really been in tune to the needs of the customer. So tell us a little bit about like literally the first product, like what did this start as? Why did you decide to start at apparel brand?

[00:03:16] Bear Handlon: Yeah, it started as a pair of compression shorts that we stitched a pad into the front of the groin. For those that have ever done like Olympic lifting, there's a lift called a snatch where you have a wide grip. You throw your kind of hips at the bar and you know, sometimes can make contact with your pubic bone. And I realized in that niche community, that was a need that needed to be solved. Very niche. And I made it literally just for myself. It was supposed to be just a one on one prototype that I was never going to make ever again. And My neighbor was a seamstress and she stitched it up and that was it.

That was done. And the guys were like, Hey man, you should sell this. And after reading a bunch of Olympic weightlifting forums, I realized, all right, this, this could be a thing. And I, you know, research supply chain and how to procure it and all that. And, you know, kind of rest is history, but it started with an actual need that we were solving for.

[00:04:04] Taylor Holiday: And, and from there, it's sort of continued to expand. I remember one of the, when you guys came to us, you had, you had Gotten some deep roots into CrossFit generally as a place where a lot of that Olympic lifting was occurring. And then I think when you came to us, it was, you had sort of expanded a similar approach to like, what would be a more functional sports bra for women?

And I remember you had this organic SEO listing for CrossFit sports bra. That had like Andrew Ferris, who was, I think your first growth strategist at CTC sort of was like, Whoa, you're getting all this organic SEO around this term that at the time you guys were like, I think the first ranking for CrossFit sports broads, you remember that?

[00:04:40] Bear Handlon: Yes. Yeah. I wish we were still that, that would be awesome.

[00:04:44] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. So, but, but you had, cause you had developed sort of like a functional approach to product, right? Like that had been really intimately serving this community in a way that you guys built product that you knew. There were unique needs for a customer. That was a unique value proposition. So it's always been in your mind that this isn't just a fashion play, this isn't style.

It was always about trying to solve some unique problem. Do you think that's like still connected to the way you think about the business?

[00:05:10] Bear Handlon: Oh, yeah, I mean, I think it's even more so now, you know, we launched a hunting brand, a hunting line, a form from outdoor and then, you know, a tactical brand or tactical and for both of those. You know, that was rooted in, you know, what I was doing in the SEAL teams and realizing that what we were getting issued was insufficient for the job. And since, you know, I was running an apparel business on the side, but I was also the end user of tactical and outdoor products, I saw huge deficiencies in the gear that only the end user who is doing that job every day would really know. And I saw an incredible opportunity, just little things like, you know, how we design the knee of a tactical pan.

You know, I'm thinking, all right. If I got to climb a 50 foot caving ladder up the side of a ship in rough conditions, I need mobility through my knees so I can climb this little wire ladder. And I, you know, that, those were deficiencies I was experiencing in real life that was planning. Okay. Why is it no one solved for this?

So yes. aspect of our gear since,

tactical comes down to our, what is the unique need we are serving here? And we have a incredible advantage because we're still close enough to that community that I'm still

[00:06:18] Taylor Holiday: I'm not, 

[00:06:19] Bear Handlon: I.

know what the guys need. And, and these big

[00:06:21] Taylor Holiday: Also, Oh, I think

[00:06:29] Bear Handlon: connected to the community as we are. A lot of these guys haven't been in the game for 20 plus years, so that there's no way for them to take a technical design and make it resonate with the end consumer because they haven't worn body armor in 20 years. Okay.

[00:06:41] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, there's a, the ad that I think about is the one where the guy's talking about how you had most of the tactical issue shirts have a zipper and shells fall into the thing when you're shooting. And I'm just like, that's such a, like a unique and specific understanding

of the apparel in practice.

yeah.

So, so it's been obvious that you like sort of had problem solution, which is always a powerful mechanism. But my, the other experience that I think is unique is that you don't stop there though. You also think a lot about brand. So where did your understanding of that piece of it, the story, the authenticity, the community outside it, it would have been easy to just make every ad problem, solution, problem, solution, problem, solution, but that's not it either from the early days.

You've had a sense of the idea of brand. Where does that come from for you?

[00:07:23] Bear Handlon: Well, I think, you know, I came from Red Bull before I joined the military and I, I think I learned a lot about brand, you know, kind of cutting my teeth there. I worked there for four years as you know, did marketing for them and what an incredible experience kind of, you know, learn from a world class company in that, you know, in branding.

Right. Appreciate it. And I realized that, like, you know, the way I look at it, like, while great product that's technical and solves a need is, is, is, you know, I think a necessity for success, one could argue someone could buy our pant right now online and go knock it off and have the same technical components that they just basic.

So it's really not defendable. What is actually defendable. Is your brand, that's the moat around your castle, right? Someone cannot recreate Born Primitive tomorrow. They just can't, they can recreate our op pant easily. so over the years we've tried to you know, portray ourselves in a way that builds a brand identity as if it was a personality of an actual human. And make sure that we do things that align with those values and those ethos. And I think in the beginning it was like kind of by, like, I didn't really know any better. I just thought that's how you kind of are supposed to do it. And now that we're bigger, I realize how critical that is. And that drives a lot of our campaigns, you know, are, how are we going to give back to the veteran community, the first responder community? How are we going to show our love of country and the founding values of the United States and things like that, that just was honestly a, personification of me as, you know, just as an individual, just now portrayed through the brand, because I'm not creative enough to come up with an alternative personality.

So it was just kind of me portrayed through Born Primitive. But that has allowed us to differentiate ourselves, particularly in recent years, because we've always been that way. We've always been consistent. And it's not like a, Oh, that's just a marketing campaign. It's like, man, they're really living those values.

[00:09:10] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. And it's been interesting cause I, if I could reflect on over the course of six years together and tell me if you think this, if this is how you experienced is that early on

[00:09:21] Bear Handlon: Okay.

[00:09:26] Taylor Holiday: started working on meta, like you reference sort of the glory days and it was just like the leggings in particular just took off and we would launch new styles and it was easy and it was just growing, growing, growing, growing, growing.

And that, that, that seemed to like sort of reduce the need to like go deep into brand. It was almost that, like the ease of paid acquisition made it so that we didn't have to go after these really aggressive stories. But then all of a sudden it got competitive and it got harder and the Ross dipped a little bit and it dipped a little bit and it dipped a little bit and we found ourselves in a little bit of the trap of like promotion.

And then it was like flash sale and discount. And all of a sudden it was like, Oh shit, we're on the wrong treadmill here. And you seem to like awaken to this idea that I need to go back to the deep, clear storytelling and power. Like is that your experience? Is that how you felt like it happened? Like, what is your reflection on that?

[00:10:16] Bear Handlon: Yeah, I mean, I think you're spot on because I even look at some of our old creative and I'm like, Oh my God, like that was so off brand, but it worked in an ad account. Right. And you're like, you know, it's just, and then it was such an inflated sense of success, particularly when, then when you got the COVID tailwind it made everyone think they were brilliant marketers when it's like, Hey, no, you weren't.

Any, anything you threw at the wall was going to stick during that window of time. and then we all had to sober up and, and when you, you know, when, when you had to look at what the truth was it was a lot of those things were, were of course being inflated. And I think that's just a great analogy because. It made me realize, okay, we're in the most competitive space. There is what is our actual value proposition here. And if we can't come up with that, other than just go to peril, I call that like an implied task. We will not survive here. We're definitely not going to build a, you know, a hundred million dollar company. And and that also led me to create Born Primitive outdoor and formative tactical and footwear. Because I wanted to create, unlock new cohorts of customers because I was like, all right, we're past kind of the early adopter phase, you have the bell curve and we're an established, you know, to, to get that incremental customer now is much more difficult. But Hey, I know I can win in tactical. I know I can win an outdoor because I've lived in those spaces and I know how to speak to that customer and I saw complacency in those spaces as opposed to fitness. Everyone was trying to do fitness apparel or tactical apparel. There's really not that many brands.

Cause it's, it's a little bit niche in a weird way. so it made me reflect on, okay, where can we grab new customers and do it in a credible way. And it's funny, cause I remember with the launch of outdoor, you know, in a tactful way, though, you challenged me and you said, Hey, like, how is this going to be, you know, I don't know if you remember this conversation, it was on a zoom and you were like, you know, what, what's your actual, like, how are you going to, how are you going to do it?

Like you did in CrossFit. How are you going to cut your teeth in this super unique space? And I, and I think I, we can say that, you know, we were able to navigate that, but it was a valid concern that you had. but it came back to like, what is that value proposition and, and, and how you position your brand to, you know, differentiate. Differentiate your yourself from brands that have been in it for 30 years.

[00:12:22] Taylor Holiday: So there's so much there that I think is I've watched us make a transition that is really hard for brands make together, which is we fell a little bit into the trap where the brand direction was sort of a response to the, whatever ad was working best. And I watched brands fall into this trap a lot where it's like, you run a bunch of ads and you're like, Ooh, this style works.

And so then. Your whole direction just try it becomes trying to recreate the best performing ad. And so you're sort of this bottoms up brand storytelling where you're like, Oh,

this legging shot, when we shoot it this way works. So go do everything like that. And you're sort of reacting

performance as the brand story.

And what I've watched a stop is like, get off that hamster wheel and go, okay.

the idea that we're going to go beat every ad next isn't the thing. And you took a step back and went, all right,

the story the brand's going to tell? And then that's going to show up in the ad account and it's going to go the opposite direction.

We're going to plan ahead of time, story, campaign, purpose, product. And that's, what's going to drive our ads are going to flow out of the story, not the other way around. This, the ads aren't going to build the story for us. And so I'm curious, like as, and part of it, I think has been getting into tactical where I watch you.

I feel like I watch you come alive with energy and thoughts and you know, that community so well. And so it's inspiring to you. Whereas I think some of the, the legging stuff doesn't inspire you personally in the same way. But how did you make that mental transition in your own life too? And how did you have the foresight to take a step back?

Cause it's a risk, right? Like you're kind of, Doing something much newer. Was it just really obvious that you had to do it or what was the sort of transition you had to make as a leader to get there?

[00:13:56] Bear Handlon: I think it, it was rooted in product need. You know, when I was in the SEAL teams, I, it, I had the seed planted of like, all right, when I eventually have the time, I'm gonna do this. 'cause this is insane that at this level we're getting issued stuff that you know, these companies are making hundreds of millions of dollars off these government contracts and they're not even perfecting the products. Like what a racket that is. And I said, all right, I don't have time right now. Cause I'm running a fitness apparel brand and I'm active duty in the SEAL teams. But like eventually when I have time, I'm going to fix this same thing with the outdoor stuff. You know, when we were out in the mountains and doing stuff out there and stuff we were wearing for extended fields day, you know, and it's minus 20 degrees at 14, 000 feet and we're freezing our balls off and saying, all right, how is this a thing? So that was where it was planted. So it started with the product need, but I also realized, you know, once, you know, fitness was so competitive, Hey, I think it'd be way easier to win in that space. Cause I think our value proposition is even stronger. It's there. Right. And it would be so much easier for me to be authentic because that's the world I'm coming from.

And it's like, of course, I'm a former athlete and I work out. So like, it's not like the fitness crew. I can't speak to credibly. Yeah. But it just seemed like such an obvious place to cut our teeth where we could do it with the same authentic story. Where, you know, the, the people that are customers in that space would look at us and say, yeah, that makes sense. They look like they belong here. You know what I mean? And it wouldn't be like, wait, where did they come from? This is like some corporation,

oh yeah, that makes sense. That big tattooed guy that used to be in the military, like that would make sense that he's trying to, you know, get in.

So,

it, it, it made it, we were, we, we were accepted by that because we did it the right way.

[00:15:28] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. And what's happened is that in each place where you've introduced, it's a new tranche of acquisition spend that gets funded into growth, right? So every time we have like the core fitness business that for a while it was like we were trying to, we were like hammering our heads against the wall, trying to get that to grow Grow, grow, grow.

And like you said, you reach a certain point where the next incremental customer just costs more than the last one. And you can't just stay in that market forever. But then it was like, okay, outdoors. Ooh, there's another tranche of spend. There's another few hundred or a few thousand dollars a day. Ooh, the op pant.

That was another tranche of spend that was like, Ooh, that unlocked a few more thousand dollars a day. And you're building a more robust set of acquisition funnels that allow you to now create the scale that you were sort of stuck in. In some ways in the other channels, right? 

[00:16:16] Bear Handlon: Yeah, I mean, a hundred percent. And here's what it also does. Let's say I acquire a customer to buy an op pant now. Well, guess what? They're going to go buy workout gear because the nature of that customer, there's a heavy fitness emphasis for that line of work, as well as these backcountry hunters that are doing 10 day hunts, there's a fitness component. And then they see we have the woodsman flannel and denim and it's like, so it, it exposes them to other usage opportunities in the different categories, but you just got them a different way. And yeah, you hit the nail on the head, you know, you exhaust kind of that existing customer base in one channel and it gets harder to, you know, incrementally, you know, you know, raise that, but you know, this was almost like a backdoor way to get back on that, the front end of that early adopter curve,

[00:16:57] Taylor Holiday: That's right.

[00:16:58] Bear Handlon: so, the of the business.

Yes.

[00:17:17] Taylor Holiday: that the only thing we're trying to do is constantly prospect newer and newer and newer customers and say, wait a second, no, we're expanding as a brand. We want to continue to engage these customers that either lapsed and hadn't been here in years or are still active, but we have something new to say to them.

And so we cut down exclusions a lot. We brought back a lot of that existing customer base and that actually actually helped fuel the efficiency of new customer acquisition too, because you are getting more signal, more positive engagement, it sort of brought the whole brand back to life by bringing those.

Those previous customers back into consideration in that process.

[00:17:50] Bear Handlon: Yeah, absolutely. I think we made that edit in March of 2024 and we brought the exclusion down to 110 days. So, you know, on day 111, if they have not purchased, they're now getting, they're basically getting prospecting campaigns again. And that, and to your point, I believe that helped the algorithm too, cause it was able to kind of figure out what's the, what's the resemblance of the

converting and then, okay, for a true new customer, let's go find that person.

You know what I

[00:18:16] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. And then the other thing that we did, and I think this is where we start to get into is we said, Hey. There's also a job to be done about keeping even the active customers connected and engaged to the cool things brands doing. And so we started to say, we're going to take some of our best assets and we're going to show them to our existing customers.

We're going to make sure they know this brand that they already own product for. Is doing lots of cool stuff still. And so I think there's this work to be done that sometimes I think we think, Oh, a customer's in our email database. Therefore they see everything that we're doing. And they, the reality is they may not have opened an email in months and have no idea all the things that you've done.

So by keeping them aware. Of the existing stuff that the brand is doing continues to deepen their connection and their likelihood that they come back. And so that was another thing too, it was like, we actually feel a responsibility to keep our community connected. You started a podcast. We started building more amazing brand video content and, and not just using that for like a lot of people take that content and they think net new top of funnel awareness, and it's great for that.

Don't get me wrong, but I think also showing your community, Hey, you're a part of something that's living, breathing and continuing to do awesome stuff is really important.

[00:19:23] Bear Handlon: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I would say anytime there's a collection launch or any, you know, for any of the listeners, like your existing customers have to see that because, you know, I know I don't ever check my personal Gmail probably ever the text message I might get in the middle of a business meeting and I scroll past it.

You're right. So you, you're in organic Instagram and seeing 1 percent of the followers. So. You know, in those moments, if it's something cool, the existing customers have to see it.

[00:19:48] Taylor Holiday: That's it. Yeah, that's exactly right. And okay, I want to jump to now a couple of the specific examples that I want to talk about that one of which I would easily call as the campaign of the year that I encountered last year for what you guys did here. But, but let's talk about this. Okay, so I'm holding up for those of you that aren't watching the savage one and I'm holding specifically the D Day edition, but talk to me.

Let's start with footwear because footwear is a tough category. Okay, With lots of competition against some of the biggest brands in the world. You're now not just competing against the other DTC leggings brands. We're talking about this is Nike. This is Reebok. This is all of the biggest brands in the world that you're entering into the arena with.

But it made a big difference. Footwear in particular, unlocked a huge tranche of customer acquisition for BP in a way that was huge to last year's success. Tell me a little bit about footwear. Footwear, why you decided to go into it. And then we're going to talk about this campaign specifically.

[00:20:42] Bear Handlon: Yeah, I mean, it was something I always wanted to do when I was active duty, but I didn't even know where to start. And I knew it was something. All right, you're going to get one shot at this. And if, and if it sucks, like, you're, you're not going to be able to make the savage to the savage one needs to be legit. And I finally got linked up with some shoe engineers to just kind of have the conversation. It was actually another seal officer. His dad has been in the shoe business for like 30 years. And he ran into me at the, in the hallway at work one day, he was like, Hey, you should talk to my dad. And I was like, ah, sure.

Didn't think anything would come of it realized you know, they're a very reputable company. And we started doing prototypes. But it unlocked so I mean, the men and women Savage one or two of our top five products now. So three of our top five products right now didn't exist like 18 months ago, which is wild.

It's the assault pant and the men and women Savage one. And then of course, it's like a couple of years of leggings. Those are our top five. to change the dynamic of your business almost overnight but you know, metrics like AOV you know, it's like, you know, it's 130 item, right? So AOV went way up. My, our payment terms are insane. We put 0 percent down, we're net 90, right? So how's that for a conversion cycle on cash, right? Particularly the D Day shoe you're holding, we pre sold, right? So that started selling May 31st. We didn't pay that bill until I think like last month. And we sold out of 10, 000 pairs of shoes to do the math.

You know what I mean? So

[00:22:01] Taylor Holiday: how are you able to, is that, did you have, was that just connections of manufacturer? How did you end up with that relationship?

[00:22:07] Bear Handlon: Yeah, the shoe engineers worked at because they managed part of that and then they like take a cut of the purchase order first year we did net 30 and they were like, Hey, you need to get trust. But then we went back to the drawing board. We're like, Hey, we're taking this thing to the moon. You know, you need to give us net 90.

And I mean, that's crazy. And, you know, particularly for pre order items. I mean, it's, you know, you're, you're paying for it 9 months later. 

Which So, I mean, that's kind of obviously a separate benefit but it just, you know, it's there's a lot of excitement with shoes. Like, I realize now a lot of our competitors like to have footwear.

What a massive advantage it is to have footwear in your arsenal because people assign a lot of value to shoes. You can iterate on colorways pretty easily, but it creates excitement on your calendar, but it's still a full price moment. you know, now we're working on a running shoe, a tactical boot, a lifestyle shoe, a barefoot trainer.

So you can already see like, you know, it'll be a very robust category for us in the future. And you know, so it's, I mean, it, man, what it has done so much for our business, it's been incredible.

[00:23:08] Taylor Holiday: And there's, there's just, the reality is there is no way that BP growth just tried to say in the same product set, like it just, it wouldn't have happened. Like we would have kept grinding it out and trying to find ways to improve the legging and come up with another color way and make a better ad and make a better ad, but we had reached like a level of.

Maturity in that category that the growth rate wasn't going to change that dramatically. And so, like you said, to get three of your top five products now are net new things, what it does from the efficacy of your media, the storytelling, the amount of things that you can do on the email, like you said, the marketing calendar, it just opens up so much to say and do that is novel and exciting and keeps engagement.

And like you said, the AOV thing is huge when you want to talk about like offsetting CPM increases. Well, the way that you can actually afford to pay more for media is that you get more from the customer back. Right. And so these are all mechanisms to continue to fuel and fund growth. But I think more than those sort of like attributes, the thing that like, I was just blown away by was the story that you built into the product.

So it's easy to talk about the cash conversion cycle and the margin and the AOV and all those things, but to your point earlier, Those are commodities. Other people can have those things, but what they can't have, and this is, I think, where

Question of what story can only we tell what is the thing that is unique to us that is different than everybody else in the world.

And I think this shoe is like such a perfect example about this. So tell people about this shoe and what the story was that you went after.

[00:24:43] Bear Handlon: Yeah. So, this past June was the 80th anniversary of Operation Overlord, which was you know, the, the landings at, at, at Normandy June 6, 1944. And I realized the 80th anniversary was coming up. was in 2023, of course, when I realized this. And there's a charity that we've been supporting the last couple of years that their specialty is they take World War II veterans back to these places on anniversaries.

And it's a big hero's welcome and it's a charity we've financially supported. I had already done the Pearl Harbor anniversary a few years before that. and I thought, man, this could be a really cool opportunity. Let's make a shoe around the 80th anniversary. This will probably be the last time these veterans can come back because it's the last kind of big one. And you know, let's donate a big portion of the proceeds to help fund these veterans to go back, you know, so we're, there'll be a financial and charitable component. And let's put some things in the shoe that are historical and mean something. So the back says, you know, 66, 1944 at zero six 30, which was the, you know, the time it started. Operation overlord. It says damn few on the front, which is kind of a saying. And then, you know, for those that got the limited edition one you know, which, which I think we sold for 300. It came in like an ammo crate box. Taylor, I know you have one. We got the government of France to give us permission to bring back 10 kilos of sand from Omaha beach. So you got a little vial of sand yeah, a branded box, pretty cool. And then within it, you got the printed out order from general Eisenhower that was like his basically order for the day, as well as five baseball cards featuring the veterans which was fun because it has like their image in the current day of them being like a hundred years old, but then you flip the card over and it's them in their uniform in the with all their accolades and their backstory. And you know, it was an experience, right. To get that box and, and and then, you know, we actually went with the veterans for the 80th. Navy SEALs jumping out of airplanes, wearing the Savage One onto the, into Normandy. Six or seven skydives. We filmed all that. And it was just a really cool moment that, you know, of course it's a great shoe, but, but people, you know, it was a culturally relevant moment.

So, you know, on Instagram, everything was popping because there was so much content around the anniversary anyway. and it was just, man, it gave us a tailwind and people were just really glad to be a part of such a good cause. We ended up donating 50, 000 from sales towards that effort which, you know, pretty good amount.

So all in all, it was a huge success. And it was a pre order item because I'm an idiot and didn't realize how long lead times on footwear was which I still was learning the hard way. So it was a pre order item they had to wait three months for, but still we sold out in, in weeks.

[00:27:23] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, so there's so much there, man, that I think hopefully people listening what I want to continue. And I'm just going to keep hammering this this year because I'm so convinced that brands that understand this are the ones that win is that. The things that you did. So you recognize that there was a preexisting cultural moment, right?

That was going to matter to your customer. There was a story that you could authentically tap into, but you did it and you came in palms down, right? Like that's JP, my co founder used to always say, come in palms down. And you said, how could we serve this community in this moment? Right. To come in and fund the, the, the event to offer proceeds of the sale to support it and to tell the stories of the veterans in a way that serves them and honors them in the process.

And it's like, it was so a beautiful way to connect to this incredibly cool moment in an authentic way that served that community. And like you said, what that does for the brand, it's such a cool story to be a part of. And I think this question of like. Does the story matter that you're telling? Do people care?

It's just a question that people have to wrestle. And the reality was like, you already had the Savage one. So this wasn't like, this is just a variation of the Savage one. Right. So to your point, doing other colorways are actually fairly easy to do once you already had the shoe and. It wasn't about volume.

It wasn't like you were going to make a bunch of money on this, but this drives demand for the brand and the story forever. Like it has ongoing residual effect in ways that is transformative. And of course, on that day, spike in revenue, ad account works better. Everything goes awesome. And you have this perpetual then ongoing sort of residual lift of brand attention that surrounds it.

[00:29:00] Bear Handlon: Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, probably the most successful campaign until we got to November, which I'm sure we'll talk about. Yeah. Yeah. It, but it reinforced, you know, that, Hey, this is, we need to continue doing stuff like this because this is how you quote unquote hack the ad account. It's not by some iterative

[00:29:15] Taylor Holiday: I talked to him, but it doesn't, it doesn't feel that close to me. Okay, so you and I do have to like, tell me, I got to talk to her dad. Doing pretty well. That's right. That's right. And so tell me a little bit about the process. So go back to when you came up with the idea and all the pieces that had go in place.

Who in the org does that? Is that you? ideation? Like what's the team that brings to life this kind of thing inside of your org?

[00:29:42] Bear Handlon: This idea popped into my head, getting on an airplane, going to Wyoming with now my, my now president. And I think I had had a couple of whiskeys and said, wouldn't it be cool if we did this? And the, the, the, what, the one we're going to talk about in November, this was the same, all of those were thought of in the same 10 seconds. and so I think right now, a lot of these brand ideas are coming from me. However, I have an incredible team that is able to take my crazy ideas and sand the edges and of course run the execution but, but I will call out. And I'm encouraging my team more to be like, Hey guys, don't just like take my ideas.

Like I want you guys to be challenging me and coming up with the next crazy thing that we all go, man, how are we going to do that? Because I think we've gotten away with me kind of pulling the rabbit out of the hat a few times. But that also represents a single point of failure and you don't want to have that.

So I need to do a better job of encouraging a creative thought from the rest of the team. So even an entry level employee can, you know, in a meeting say, Hey, what if we did this? And we all go, Oh, damn. We should but up until now it's worked. Okay.

I think, yeah.

[00:30:46] Taylor Holiday: my only pushback to this is that I actually think and you and I have had these conversations is that There's something about what a CEO has freedom to consider as possible. That's actually really hard for an entry level employee to replicate. They don't know what they're allowed to move. They don't think about like they feel constrained by the money and the decisions and the timing.

Whereas CEOs, part of your authority gives you freedom to dream and know I can move anything. If I want it, we can do it. And I, I think what you've done a great job of, and I've watched you go from being In every one of our meetings, talking about the Facebook ad account to now having an amazing team of marketers

allowed you to step back out of that, out of the day to day to go be that person.

do think the more time that you spend doing that unique Bear thing is way better for you. Then having the discussions about the email send schedule and the da, da, da, da,

people that are executing that you trust and are doing a good job, I do think it's important for you to continue to free yourself up for those whiskey moments.

It's like, because you are uniquely gifted.

[00:31:49] Bear Handlon: Yeah, and I, I think it's a great lesson learned and, you know, I've used the analogy of like a ship captain, right? Maybe, you know, of a big Navy ship. Maybe this guy at once was an engineer and knew, you know, could go down into the engine room and troubleshoot. Well, by the time he's the captain of the ship, He's still running down into the engine room to check on, you know, how, you know, the, you know, the light that came on or whatever that they need to fix, well, he needs to be on the bridge, making sure the bridge wing, making sure that, you know, the direction of the ship's going, and there's not something looming on the horizon.

They need to change course. And I am absolutely guilty of that. And I think a lot of founders are guilty of that because at one point. You were the ship captain and the engineer and you know, the accountant and all, you know, every role is, we all know that I've started anything. Eventually you have to graduate from that and you have to realize where your true, your true value ad is. And, and I've kind of recognized for me, it's these wild ideas I get when I'm in a squat rack or sipping on a whiskey on an airplane where I go, Oh, there it is, boom, let's do it. And it comes together in 10 seconds. And then it becomes a full on campaign. So, I have realized that maybe the hard way.

Yeah.

[00:32:50] Taylor Holiday: Well, I, I,

think you've done such a good job like they're like, I think you've, you have, I've watched you develop trust with the people that you have around you in a way that I don't think you did for a long time. So between Tony, Mal, Claire, like your brother now being in the finance home, like, I feel like you have more confidence in the people that surround you than you ever have before in a way that I see you being more confident in leaving those things.

Whereas before I think you were really nervous that if you walked away. It might not get done at the level you want. And look, you still come in and crack the whip and that's a leader's job. And you know, you've done that to us. You've done that to everybody, I think, in ways that will always be part of it.

the team has part of what's enabled you to go to that space. And this is the thing I push CEOs a lot. When I, when I work with brands and I see you're in with me talking about yesterday's click through rate, like.

[00:33:37] Bear Handlon: brmo

[00:33:38] Taylor Holiday: being obfuscated is your job to go build the story.

That's really going to transform this. Cause I can't as your agency partner, we're never going to do that. We're never going to build your brand for you. So I think I've watched you go take on that responsibility in a way that has led to where BP's at

[00:33:53] Bear Handlon: You

[00:34:06] Taylor Holiday: unique Bear is in the story of what happened for veterans. Right. Like from being able to get to Fox news, to the idea of the medical debt, to understanding how medical debt works for like, there's so much that you uniquely understand that it would be hard for almost anybody else to come up with the idea.

So let's go there now. So if, if this was the best campaign I saw all year. The second best or maybe even a better one from a financial outcome for sure was what you guys did this November for Veterans Day. So tell us a little bit about this campaign.

[00:34:36] Bear Handlon: Yeah. So every Veterans Day, the last few years, we've donated a hundred percent of profits up to like a cap, you know, which has been a hundred grand the last few years over like a three day window. And it's always Veterans Day weekend. And we saw it as a cool opportunity, you know, to give back to the veteran community, you know, being a veteran owned brand and, you know, aligns with the values of the company. Well, this year you know, I was like, man, what, what can we do a little bit different to kind of up the ante and increase our, our overall impact on the veteran community? And I got linked up with a company called forgive co that does debt forgiveness. And they can do it really for anyone, but I went to them and said, Hey, could we filter this through, do it for veterans only? And I want it to be medical bills because like no one deliberately incurs medical bills. That's usually as a result of some tragedy or unforeseen event that, you Like you didn't, you don't plan on getting T bone driving to work that day. And it can cause devastating effects on someone's life if they rack up bills.

So I thought that could be a really unique way to help this community right before the holiday. And it's just a different angle, like donating to a charity is great, but then it gets diluted a little bit and you know, this is literally a one to one impact. So long story short we wired, you know, the money in August and we said, all right, we're going to pay off 5 million in veteran medical bills or two and a half. To get to five, so we're going to pledge the first two and a half. We want to get to five. And over that four day period, 96 hours, we'll pledge all profits to try to get to 5 million in total. And it, it, it was just, it was crazy because it just, the response we got. It was just absolutely incredible. And, you know, I got a bunch of media. I was on Fox news twice. One was on Fox and friends. One was on their, their morning show during the weekday. I was on a bunch of podcasts and a bunch of people wanted to cover the story. But I'll, I'll rewind a little bit. I think what made it even better is we had a pretty strategic product launch on November 1st. But it was very tied into the veterans day campaign, although it was quite different. We launched a couple of colorways of the savage one. Now I'll be honest with you. This actually wasn't intentional in the beginning. I was just like looking at the calendar and with shoes. It ended up being four days before the election would either make me the craziest person or the smartest person ever in this scenario.

Because as we know, like the Friday before the election, like, the ad account sucks and no one's purchasing because everyone's kind of stressed out. And we all were, of course. But we launched a patriotic shoe capsule. That, you know, was kind of around the founding values of our Republic. And one was a don't try to me edition, which is the Gadsden flag that goes back to our Navy heritage and the first ever Naval battle. And then the other shoe was the Betsy Ross edition. It was a patriotic color way. And we sent out to a bunch of influencers, these shoes in a beautiful mahogany box with the two shoes. Inlaid was a flintlock pistol, which goes back to the first naval battles. Inlaid in the lid was the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There was a quote inscribed by Benjamin Franklin that he talked about the importance of freedom of speech in a free society. And then inlaid into the wood. Was a piece of wood from the USS constitution, which was our first ever warship and on the lid and beautiful inscriptions said, we, the people. So we made 50 of those limited edition ones and sent those out with the two shoes during the veterans day campaign to do these unboxing moments that all these different people are talking about one. Wow. Hey, these are super cool shoes and oh my God, it's got a Flintlock pistol, but Hey, by the way, go check these guys out.

They're donating a hundred percent of profits. They're trying to pay off. 5 million in veteran medical bills. And it went viral. And, and when I went on Fox news, I mean, we had 80, 000 people on the site within two minutes. So it was a wild success story. We ended up actually doing 11 million in debt that we paid off because it went so well I thought it was morally the right thing to do to, to more than double the pledge. And next year we're trying to go even bigger. We're trying to partner up with potentially Black Rifle Coffee and one other entity that I can't name yet and maybe make that number just an outrageous number. And you know, I was getting phone calls from these recipients of people in tears. were in confidence telling me that they were, you know, maybe going to kill themselves because the burden of this was so much and it was the holiday and now they have a new shot at life.

And, you know, there was one guy on the Marines birthday, the birthday of the Marines, which is the day before Veterans Day, got the notification that is 183, 000 bill. He was partially paralyzed, single father of three. But because of complications, they wouldn't cover the bill. The VA wouldn't, you know, at 183, 000.

He said, I would have literally never paid that off. My credit is, is, is, is toast. All this, this gives me a new shot at life. These are real stories that, you know, it was over 6, 000 veterans. This ended up, you know, debt free going into Christmas. So, I ended up actually getting very emotionally attached to something that initially was a concept that I knew it was going to do a good thing.

But by the time I talked to all these people and I'm getting random letters in the mail and people, it was crazy, man. It knocked me on my ass to be honest with you.

[00:39:29] Taylor Holiday: And I want, I hope if you're all listening that go back and just play that last two minutes again. And think about all the thought that goes into all the pieces because there certainly was some elements like you said, I didn't mean for it to be before the election that like worked out. But every piece from the influencer send out to the idea that I'm there to serve a community to create a real impact that creates a story to the PR that it generated to what you could think about the visuals and go look, you can go look on Instagram.

Go look at the quality of the visuals. This produces. And then I want you to just contrast that with all of the Twitter BS conversation about do post it note ads work. And I, it makes me want to, like, I go crazy talking to brands about this, that when it's like, do you want to build a story that matters?

Do you actually want to make your things stand out to a group of people in a way that has substance and care and thoughtfulness and unique like attention? And this is what it requires. It requires doing cool things that matter. I'm curious about like, what is it like? If we go back to COVID, the other thing that you did during that time, and we've done an episode of this before, was you did a give back to gyms where you like, you raised money for gyms that had been shut down.

And that was another huge inflection point moment for, for the brand. Where does that come from? The idea that you would actually use the brand to serve Different charitable efforts and things like that. Why? Why is that been a part of your story?

[00:40:50] Bear Handlon: Well, I think it's in a personal level, just a sense of purpose. You know what I mean? And I will say this, like, I think you can have purpose and give back, but also achieve great financial success and both can happen at the same time. And I think that's totally okay. But I think in the early years, like that, that back, the gyms campaign, we did that was genuinely out of like, man, this is like, you know, it was COVID pandemic, all the gyms were shutting down and we're like, you know, our brand wouldn't be around if it weren't for these local gyms all over the country, what can we do to help them?

Because they've just been told they can't, they have to close. So we did 10 days where we, we donated 50 percent of our profits to any gym that could enroll. We set up a quick landing page. You fill out the information, it punches you out a promo code. It auto generated you a bunch of Instagram stories and creative that you can post on your gym's Instagram page. And before I know it, it started going viral. We had over 2000 gyms enroll and we ended up donating a close, a little over 200, 000 across the board. It was a financial nightmare because you had to run all these reports and you know, I won't bore you with that, but it gave, it gained a lot of credibility, particularly in the CrossFit because it was like, man, here we are, the government's not doing anything for us and this random companies like, you know, stood this thing up and it's just sending us a PayPal payment for like doing nothing. That was a pretty, that was, I think, a light bulb moment that, of course, we've continued on that path since.

[00:42:12] Taylor Holiday: And I just think that there's such a real question that brands ultimately have to answer, which is like, do you actually give a shit about your customers? Do they actually matter to you that? Or are you looking for a transaction from them? And The reality is, is that maybe that would have worked out for you financially and endeared you, but it wasn't the primary motivator for you.

I think at least in that moment, I know it wasn't. I, the end result is that you repeatedly show up and go, what's the story of my customers are going to care about, how do I build a product that will really benefit them? And how do I engage with them in the most authentic way? That's who I am. That's going to make me feel purposeful, make our company proud of who we are.

And it shows up in everything you do. And that's how you make the damn ad account work. Like, and I just. Can't say this loud enough for people is to go watch these stories. And I'm going to keep telling them because candidly, like I want to be really candid that CTC or any other agency can't actually grow your brand.

I can, and Bear does a great job of holding us to a high standard to doing. Awesome, disciplined work to allocate their money correctly to the right channels, to do the right settings, to execute on time, to do what we say we're going to do, to be effective in helping them financially plan for potential results, all those things.

But at the end of the day, it's on him to build his story and getting to partner with somebody who does that well, it was what makes a six year relationship. That's how an agency and brand have a six year relationship is we both know our role. And Bear doesn't obfuscate his responsibility to grow Born Primitive to me.

Like he doesn't think of it as my job. It's his job. And he knows that. And I have a role to play as a partner boldly. He takes on that responsibility and builds incredible stories. So, Bear cheers to you, man. I it's been, I feel like I've totally watched you transform. Over the last 18 months as a leader and similar to me, it was built through like a hardship, right?

Like the end of 2022, those were hard times. Like, and you've embraced it and done some really cool stuff. Any any teasers for things you got coming up? What do you, or anything you'd want to add for people?

[00:44:07] Bear Handlon: I mean, we're the shoe collection is growing incredibly you know, those different those beyond the savage one. There'll be a bunch more. I'm really excited about that. Our tactical boot, the Patriot one. It will launch in September and I'll just give you a quick version on this. This is a boot for military and law enforcement, but similar to how we've done other products that were on like the 12th prototype of this. And every little detail we had to make sure in every environment, this would work. And we, we, throughout the prototypes, we identified fail points that like no one else would have been able to pick up on. For example, got three or four guys sneaking through a house and it's a little, the soles are a little bit squeaky, right?

So we had to go back to the sole company and say, Hey, this is too squeaky. Cause we need this to be quiet for this line of work. Right? So they sent us four different outsole options and we, we tested all of them. Okay. That's the quietest one. It's, it's puncture proof as well. Boom. Going with that getting it in the water, making sure that water drains out appropriately.

So if someone's coming at, you know, from the ocean on the land, you know, that works. And then the last thing we validated. and the reason I bring this up is because I think this is what differentiates companies is that no one else is going to do this. There's a fast rope strip on the inside of the boot on either side, because when you fast rope, it gets incredibly hot. I've worn boots before. By the time I hit the ground, I was a pair of Nike boots. It burned through all the way through the outsole because there was so much heat generated when you're carrying all that weight going down a rope like that. So we rented a Blackhawk helicopter in Tennessee for 40, at four hours, cost me 50 grand and we did a 75 foot fast rope with this one, full equipment, body armor, guns, helmets, the whole thing. With three in my me and three of my other employees with the boot prototypes to validate that, all right, if a platoon of Navy SEALs are wearing these and they fast rope into something, they're not going to burn through it by the time they hit the ground. So we spent 50 grand just to validate that one feature on the boot. Now, guess what? When we go to promote it, we're going to be able to tell the story of how this was developed in the different environments that it was tested in. So the end user says, all right, you know, from a police officer who Doesn't need to do any of those things the special operator that says, all right, these guys, one of us, and they, they know what we need now there's credibility, but there's also a story behind like the, you know, this has been in development for 24 months now. So we're trying to take that approach with every product that we do. We're doing the same thing with the barefoot trainer and the running shoe and et cetera, et cetera. But I thought that was kind of a cool analogy, you know, kind of just reference of like, all right, I realize that is a. That is a feature we had to nail because if you burn through a fast roping strip, you're, you're dead.

No, one's going to wear the shoe ever again. You've lost all credibility, but we took it to the extreme. No, one's actually doing a 75 foot fast rope in real life. I promise you

[00:46:44] Taylor Holiday: But we do this great buy in for that strategy to be able to hold forward to everyone's CEO, CFOs, and stockholders. Some made up story to try and create the hook because he did that in the product. He actually cared enough to create a story that allows me to create amazing. One, I'm gonna have amazing video footage.

I already know it because he sent me a bunch of these videos already from renting helicopters and shooting guns in all sorts of crazy stuff. So right away, I'm gonna have amazing visuals built into it. Two is like that product feature is a hook that I can use that nobody else can, that I don't have to go get chat GPT to write me 50 fake headlines, like to make up some reason why somebody is going to care.

The care is built into the product. The hook is the product. And this is, I think, the thing that you just have to challenge yourself to ask yourself when you're making your thing, why will anyone care? And it's not going to because some copywriter is clever. Don't depend on that. Build it into the story of the product and watch the thing transform.

And watch the ad account improve. Watch the ads get better. It's all right there for you.

[00:47:52] Bear Handlon: And I think last thing I'll say on this is just like, you know, don't be afraid to be different. You know, you need to be right, but, but if you're doing what everyone else is doing, like by that time, it's probably like the gigs up. You know what I mean? If you think you're going to iterative creative your way to like a hundred million that ship sailed five years ago.

Right. There was probably a time where in a 24 month window with the right people, and you probably could have, you know, been acquiring a customer for 10 bucks and scaled it and then exited through a PE firm and, you know, right off into the sunset, but that doesn't exist anymore. So, you know, do be, be willing to be different and for our tactical stuff. That came down to us running around with body armor and suppressed rifles and blowing stuff up in the desert. And, and, and to me that was like, of course we're going to do. I remember when we first did the first shoot, had this LA film crew come out and meet us in the desert. And these guys had shot for big productions on Netflix and, you know, action films. we're all standing there at six o'clock in the morning, a bunch of tattooed guys jamming their magazines with real bullets. And we got belt fed machine guns. And one of the film guys walks over to me and said, Hey, Are those real bullets? said, I kind of chuckled. I said, well, hell yeah, they are.

What do you think? I mean, we just got to look real and they were like, holy shit. You know, they were scared. And we said, hey, as long as you stay behind us, like, we're fine. We did this for a living. And then we're rigging up a car with explosives because we're going to go blow this car up by shooting it at Tannerite.

We're rigging up a Tannerite. These guys like minds blown. We just laughed because we're like, so we, we just thought that was normal. And then we started showing all of this content in our ad content when everyone else was afraid to show guns in their ads. And I was like, well, guys, our customer is a bunch of military and law enforcement guys, like, of course, we're going to show guns.

Why would we be afraid of that? And it's cool now, because now I see our competitors are copying us. And, and these are big corporations, you know, publicly traded companies that are like, Oh, we need to start doing what form primitives doing. And I've even heard in their board meetings, cause I know a few of them. That we have now come up in board meetings and they're showing our commercials on their screen as like, Hey, we need to do this. So I think we pioneered that a little bit, but it was because we weren't afraid to be different. And we knew that would resonate with the customer, of course. So that's just one example, whatever

[00:50:00] Taylor Holiday: Similar alignment on the goal and 

[00:50:03] Bear Handlon: be afraid to be different. Cause that's how you're going to

[00:50:05] Taylor Holiday: right? So that's it. You have to, you have to in be for somebody, which probably means you're not for somebody too, and you have to be willing to be okay with that. That it's like there is a customer that's not Born Primitives customer, and that would not like the content, but.

As equally as that reaction exists, there is somebody who it is uniquely for, who's gonna really freaking care, who's gonna spread the story, and it's gonna matter to them. And Bear has sent me many a video where I get a text and I'm like, oh shit, I don't know if Meta's gonna accept this video, but we're gonna, we're gonna give it a shot.

But we, we go for it, and I think Bear, watching you, Lean into being uniquely you and serving uniquely. Your customer has been really inspiring to watch and excited to be a part of this. Thanks for coming to share the story, man. And for those of you listening, you're not going to be bare, right? You don't have to do it his specific way, but what I want you to take away from the story is that the story matters and that you have to challenge yourself to tell the story.

Great stories and connect it to great product, and that will transform and continue to grow your business in the future. Follow in Bear. Where can they follow along? What's the best place to follow the story?

[00:51:09] Bear Handlon: at born priv. com. I'm actually off Instagram for three weeks because I'm doing this. This is just this purge detox, which is great. I feel a little better, but so I, but I'm at bare hand on an Instagram, depending on when you watch this. And the last thing I'll say, Taylor is, you know, I just want to thank you guys you know, our relationship with CTC, this last year, 2024 was by far the best year you guys have ever had.

I mean, guys are firing on all cylinders and of course we gave you the storylines, but the tactical execution that you guys did, and I'm not just saying this to blow smoke and make you guys look good on the podcast, like it was absolutely critical to our success. And you guys have raised your game so much.

And of course I've stuck with you over the years, but there's been some difficulties, obviously once we

[00:51:52] Taylor Holiday: Totally. Yeah.

[00:52:03] Bear Handlon: I think 52%. AOVs up, MERs up, all these metrics are up and, and so much of that is a testament to, to you guys taking what we do on our end, but then, you know, delivering on your end too. So I appreciate it, man.

[00:52:17] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, man,

[00:52:18] Bear Handlon: we're all, yeah.

[00:52:19] Taylor Holiday: you've done, you've done, you've been such a great partner in that I think one of the things that happens is that when things get rough and inevitably over the course of six years, you're going to go through hard moments. A lot of people just bail. Now I think you and I had enough relational equity that you sort of called me to the mat and you said, this isn't good enough right now.

And I need you back and making sure that we get the best quality work. And. All of that gave us space to look back at what we do and go, okay, how do we make it better? How do we get into a place where when a customer is this invested with us, they're this committed. How can we be awesome? And your team has been amazing.

There's just a level of collaboration of accepting process that has been a just really cool. And I'm really proud of it. I'm proud of it. I've told you before I want to be a at each other's finish line, man. Whenever that is, we're, we're in this. So I appreciate everything you've done, dude. And thanks for sharing your story.

[00:53:03] Bear Handlon: Well,

[00:53:04] Taylor Holiday: See you at, see you in Jackson hole. See you in Jackson. All

[00:53:06] Bear Handlon: I'll see you. Let's do some snowmobiling.

[00:53:08] Taylor Holiday: right, dude. Peace.

[00:53:09] Bear Handlon: All right. Later.