Overcoming Organizational Inertia

[00:00:00] Richard Gaffin: Hey folks. Welcome to the ecommerce playbook podcast. I'm your host, Richard Gaffin, director of digital product strategy here at common thread collective. And I'm joined today, of course, by Taylor holiday. He's in his Lloyd Christmas era. His words, not mine, Taylor.

What's going on?

[00:00:12] Taylor Holiday: you know, just trying out a new hairstyle, Richard. I've been accused of being the Madonna of ecommerce before. Cause I got so many different looks had the bleached hair for a bit. You'll see me with the shaved head. You'll see me with a beard. You'll see me with no beard mustache for a bit in a few of these episodes.

So I like to mix it up.

[00:00:25] Richard Gaffin: Excellent. So Taylor, you have been, this has been an interesting week for you this past week. Not only have you played a lot of golf, you've also been back in the trenches with some growth teams, managing a couple of clients of ours, but one of the longtime client of ours, more primitive, you've been sitting in with them, just kind of getting a sense of the day to day. And so for this episode, we wanted to maybe return to some of the more like, let's call it e commerce playbook classic, where we get into some like a dive truly into the day to day tactics. And, so obviously, while you were in there, while you were kind of getting your hands dirty, I think you got a couple of observations that you wanted to talk through here. So let's let's kick it off. Talk to me a little bit about, like, broadly, the experience of getting back into the work.

[00:01:06] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. strategists was on vacation and I was like, Hey, you know what? So I'd like to use this opportunity to get back into the seat, see how our processes are working, see how the tools are working, just keep connected to the flow. And so born primitive, who's a long, we've been with them since the day they launched or just shortly after almost five years now maybe even longer than that, maybe closer to seven years.

But so bear and I are really close. So it was a good chance for me to get in there. Take the old ship for a little, little sale, if you will, and see how it went. And there were some things I noticed about the pattern that I'm reminded of that I know intuitively or mentally, but feeling it again and the importance of some of these messages, it's already reinvigorates me to come and share with all of you, like the importance of this stuff, like how important it is to get this stuff right and how much the things that we're sharing matter.

And so it's good. To get back in and see that firsthand, the just dramatic impact that you can make in a short time with some specific sets of actions. And I have three things today that I think I want us to highlight based on my experience of managing backing out accounts, full growth strategy, email flows, creative, all of it.

As it relates to an e commerce business in the eight figures,

[00:02:18] Richard Gaffin: Awesome. All right. Well, then let's get dive right into them. So the first thing, and we talked a little bit of this before we record, but the first thing was around the pace of growth. And so, like, one thing that you mentioned, of course, was the disposition to action relative to a problem. But maybe there's an idea here around the pace of growth more generally.

So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about that, that experience?

[00:02:37] Taylor Holiday: I'm reminded how organizations have a gravitational Pull towards like inertia

of just doing nothing of like having discussion and ideating versus acting. And it just, you know, you've seen that sort of a wheel of like the more people you introduce into a conversation. The, like the longer the conversation gets in the slower and the harder it is to communicate.

I, it just boggles my mind how true this is, like how, what just a property of physics

this is. And so I got to manage the account over a really important span, which is the end of a previous month into the start of a new month. And what that means is that we're going through reforecasting. So we're getting into a latest estimate forecast for the month of March, as well as then acting against the early days of that month.

And what I say, the pace of growth, what I mean is you have to vigorously and ruthlessly pursue delivering on the exact thing you said you're going to do. And when you miss, if at all, by any amount immediately reconcile that gap very quickly, or it just compounds in a way that moves. To where you will miss the overall objective for a longer period of time.

And especially in a bigger organization, what I see happen is someone will point out the issue, they'll suggest a solution, and then they'll wait for the delivery of that solution. And that time

period is just longer than the necessary window to close it. And I, it just, it's not out of any malicious behavior.

Or even anybody doing anything wrong, it just is a way that it happens. This past week, Frank Slootman, who was the CEO of snowflake stepped down. And so there was all these quotes that started getting circulated about famous things that he had said. He's like a really respected tech CEO.

And he has this quote that I sent to our sales team. And actually read in a company meeting that I think is so applicable to what I'm talking about here. And it goes like this. He says, People get visible pep in their step. They exude energy. Somebody would ask me if he could get back to me about something next week.

And I would reply, how about tomorrow morning? It might be completely unreasonable. It doesn't matter. The point was to change people's sense of urgency. We are always compressing cycle time on everything. Like that quote right there. If there's anything that you take and write on your wall in your office out of this podcast, it's this line.

We are always compressing cycle time on everything. Did we sometimes take it too far? Of course we did. You don't know what's possible until you try. The same thing applies in interactions with other stakeholders, especially customers who all have expectations about reasonable response times. It's easy to differentiate yourself by changing cycle times because few bother to do it.

And this is a thing I've noticed like, Oh, this ad account is behind on spend a little. Compress the cycle time to close it. Oh, this ad, we did a photo shoot. When's the ad creative going to be ready? Compress the cycle time to the answer. All these little areas. Oh, email revenue has a deficit. Compress the cycle time to getting another one live.

All of these things are just an energy that's required. That's connected to the disposition. The organization has to do we miss our goals? Yes or no.

[00:05:48] Richard Gaffin: So it's interesting. I was just Googling Frank Luteman and obviously you retired five days ago and in the, the fortune. com site reportage about this event, it says Frank's Luteman saw his CEO role as quote, insanely confrontation. That's sort of his assessment of his own role as CEO there. It's no flake. So talk to me a little bit about in your experience, what, what motivates that type of behavior? What kind of

[00:06:12] Taylor Holiday: So that's so funny.

[00:06:13] Richard Gaffin: you know?

[00:06:14] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, that's literally what you, what it is. It's, it's not about, it's about recognizing the default movement of an organization is towards slower and more just less action. And so you are actually the energy that counteracts that problem. And so there's this. It is. It's funny because this is actually what I told Garrett is the solution in this instance with a particular client is more confrontation is that you actually have to press on them too because their organization suffers the same thing ours does, which is a movement like is inertia.

And so you in those meetings for the weekly, their connection to the ad account, especially if it's not their responsibility to make it successful, like in the sense that that's not their primary KPI is that. They're not going to act with the level of urgency that you need to accomplish the thing that you want.

So you have to be in there. And sometimes what that actually manifests as is like being a little confrontational with the person to say like, no, how about not next Thursday? How about Monday?

Could you get it to me by tomorrow? Like there literally is a force of energy that you have to walk into the account with.

And that as an agency in particular, you're managing multiple clients. It's easy to fall into the pattern of their workflow. And you have to be the force of change to move it at the pace you need it to.

[00:07:30] Richard Gaffin: So. One thing, or the, the objection that comes to mind immediately, of course, is something along the lines of like, okay, so we're heading towards each or if we, if we set our minds towards the most recent fire that's burning, will that pull our attention away from longer term goals, let's say, which this kind of thing does happen, but in this case, what, what's different about it?

[00:07:54] Taylor Holiday: I think this is like, and it's a little cliche, but it's sort of a question of, are you in wartime or peacetime? And what is the state of the house that you're in? Right. There's a classic Reed Hoffman quote as it relates to this idea, which is when you're growing really fast, let small fires burn and focus on the ones that can take the house down and those that can't and decide which they are.

And just, you know, they have that disposition. What I'd say is that for a lot of brands right now, And if you're listening, segment yourself out in your head here to whether or not you care about this advice. Are you succeeding and growing and everything's profitable and awesome? Or are you a little bit on the edge where profitability is at risk?

And I'd say more people are in that state. And when that's the case, the idea of like long term action and the planning processes, they all have to be circumnavigated by like, make money now. Make it work. Now, I'll give you another example where I've saw our organization fall into this trap. Email plan.

The email plan is to design 15 different emails. That's the scope of work that we have for a customer. The initial plan was for like six of those to be on a redesign of a flow. And When I went and looked at the email plan relative to the revenue objective, flows tend to be a really small percentage of your overall revenue.

And redesigning a flow is kind of a peacetime activity. It's like, oh yeah, this will help long term generate more incremental revenue every month. But as a percentage of the total revenue this month, it's very small. Take those six deployed emails out of the flow redesign. We're shipping more emails this month.

That's the action to make the most immediate impact now. And that's where I think you can get into. But the process was we wanted to redesign these flows and improve longterm. I get it. You don't get to worry about longterm if you're dead. So fix this month now, you know, and I think just where are you at in your own disposition as you show up to say like, what am I going to do this week?

Am I going to design those flows? Or is it like. No, no, no. I'm going to win the game. Now what I need to do accordingly.

[00:09:48] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. I'm reminded of, I think it was Phil Knight who said that business is battle without bullets. This idea that like wartime is sort of the basic disposition, let's say of a business. And but of course, like there's always costs to that. Right. So I think what I'm curious about is like, what, what does it look like, or what is a bad decision made in urgency in this case? Right. So if you're

saying like, let's get more urgent, right? All of a sudden, I think the possibility of making a mistake as you get a little bit more and more sort of wound up kind of grows. So what, what if the pitfalls to avoid around like pushing the group to make these choices, I guess,

[00:10:25] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. So I think there, there's a, there's a sort, there's a sort of good information leads to good inspiration here, which is there's a bunch of ways in which you could bake a bunch of manic decisions. Like I'll give you an example is media buyers. One of the manic things I watch people do is like turn ads off all the

time.

Right. Or in ways that are, they're poorly informed strategically, but are just look like action. They look like behavior or movement. Versus no, no, no. I'm going to set up the right account structure to enable fast movement and action that allows it to work effectively. Is it is an example where manic behavior leads to it, or we go launch a bunch of stuff and we didn't get the information we needed about inventory positions.

And so we. Spent a bunch of creative energy on a product that's no longer available. That information led to bad action, and it wasn't strategic and thoughtful. So part of the way you move fast is that you're deeply ingrained in the information

in a way that you know everything you need to know in order to get there.

And so part of the thing that I felt was like, I need to get a view of the entire

landscape. I need to know all of it as fast as I can. And that was my first urgency was like, I'm going to absorb everything I can to be the most knowledgeable person in the room. And that was, that is part of the initial action that allows for you to move

quickly.

[00:11:38] Richard Gaffin: that makes sense. Okay. Well, so speaking of media buyers, let's, let's move on then to your second point here, which is observations that you had about the connection between paid media spend and inventory management. Obviously the connection between paid media and ops is like a big part of what we do here. So how did you see that actually playing out on the ground when you were in it last week?

[00:11:57] Taylor Holiday: As we went into the month of February, there's a newer product that they had, which was specifically their savage one, their shoe that historically hadn't been a big part of the media mix in February. It did really well. What that led to was we had a planned restock because the inventory was running low.

It looked like it was going to be mid March shipping was delayed. It's not going to be ready till early April. The sales velocity mixed with the delayed shipping created a gap. Okay. When we built the media plan for the month, we had, I'm just making up some numbers now, but this is an estimate about 40, 000 of media spend that was planned to be on Savage one.

Because we were in dialogue and aware of that before the month started, we were able to redesign where those 40, 000 were going. Additionally, we have a campaign that's really overperforming on one of the SKUs right now related to their jogger product. There is more media plan for the jogger than we've had historically.

We checked in on the inventory to understand if we could support that action for that skew. And it looks like we can get to about the towards the end of the month. But then we would run into some issues in a couple of the core skews. And so what we did was we made an adjustment to take more efficiency.

So we tighter tighten the cost controls and lowered the amount of planned budget on that individual skew and went, okay, where else do we go? And so especially in an apparel business with a broad catalog, it is so critical to be coordinated with the media dollars and the inventory. Because if you have this plan, if we had just rolled into March without a discussion about the savage one, we would have suddenly and unexpectedly lost 50, 000 of plan spend.

And it would have been very difficult at that point to make up the.

[00:13:37] Richard Gaffin: Right. So then, well, okay. So let's maybe give it, so let's go to the third point, which is, cause it's also a particularly around coordination between parts of the media or parts of the marketing team, rather. So, you're talking about creative production and the disconnect that's continues to happen between let's say creative production and media needs. So let's talk a little bit about your observations about that connection and kind of what, maybe what happens when, I don't know, it breaks.

[00:14:05] Taylor Holiday: every product has the capacity to generate a bunch of revenues, such that you should do a bunch of creative work to try and sell it. So in a very basic example, there were a couple of SKU releases towards the end of the month that the inventory position on the SKU and the expected volume was actually pretty low.

And we had a media plan that was already pretty robust and full. And so. We didn't need, or nor did the amount of inventory warrant creating Facebook campaigns and doing creative

production for those SKUs. But when we started the conversation, that was the plan. There was a separate agency doing video edits.

There was some additional work from their internal team. And it was just cause like, Oh, there's a launch at the end of the month. We'll make a bunch of ads and here you go. No, no, no. How much volume is there? How important is this skew? Because these dollars are an opportunity cost a dollar somewhere else.

And I was like, well, I don't, that's what's the AOV on that item. Oh, it's pretty low. I would rather be spending that budget over here. So do I have to spend on this one? How important is this? Will you move this inventory without me? And that dialogue, and then in the middle of it, how many ads do I need in light of how important the opportunity is?

Oh, wait, this opportunity is now bigger. I need this many more units from you. Oh, this opportunity is really small. I only need this many units

from you. Oh, we have a big sale this month. Here's how much I'm going to spend. Shane, how many campaigns is that going to be? Okay. How many ads do I need? What kind of ads do you need?

Okay. Is that what your team's actually producing? Oh no. We were going to make twice as many as that. I don't need twice as many as that. We're actually repurposing some of the best sellers from last year. We have this many. I only need seven more. Oh shit. I was part of my English. We were going to make 24.

Okay. Wait a second. Now the actual need comes into alignment relative to the media plan, but that dialogue has to occur all the way down the month. And the media buyer has to be able to know every campaign they plan to launch. If you don't have that visibility, you'll just make all the stuff. And it's so wasteful.

It's so

[00:15:56] Richard Gaffin: Yeah. Okay. So the question that comes to mind, then I was like, Oh, so how did this happen? Right. Cause this is the type, this feels like a tale as old as time you're pushing the wrong product because creative happened to have been made about or whatever. But why do you think like this coming into this month or let's say the end of the month, that was the plan, even though the numbers didn't really back it up once you looked into

[00:16:16] Taylor Holiday: organizations. Don't cross collaborate. And the more people you get, the harder it is to cross collaborate, right? When it's two people in a room together as an, as a business, both of them know everything about the company. And then you introduce layers and those layers exist in different parts of the office or in different parts of the country.

And so they only talk to each other in the event that there's a synchronized meeting. And that synchronized meeting is slow and takes a lot of time. And the information doesn't get dispersed. And so what happens is less people, no less, no less things. And so you just ended up this thing where it's like, Oh, I'm a designer.

There's a launch. I'm going to make ads. I don't know how many there are. I don't know what the budget is in the ad account. And then you've got us as an external partner running the media account. And so they literally have no idea whether we're going to build one campaign or five campaigns, whether there's 10 units or 10, 000

units. And so the amount of organizational friction just goes up. Over time. And so it just becomes harder and harder to disseminate that information and align it accordingly.

[00:17:11] Richard Gaffin: So it seems, it kind of strikes me that like. The last two we talked about, so one was the paid media and inventory planning, then creative production and how that relates to the paid media plan are both sort of subcategories in a sense of the first observation that you have, which is that, which is about pace of growth and about urgency. And essentially what we're talking about here is the inertia, the additional inertia that's introduced into a system when more elements are introduced into that system. Cause you can imagine, let's say born primitives creative team now has forward momentum towards creating assets for this product that actually doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense for them to run. And so what you're talking about is stopping them, pushing them back the other way, then bringing everybody else. In with that as well. Stop what you're doing. Start doing something else. You can imagine the more elements are involved in that with momentum and other directions, the more wrangling at all it becomes.

[00:18:01] Taylor Holiday: Yeah.

And most people feel subordinate to process, not that process is subordinate to them. So in other words, if you're an employee, let's just use CDC as an example. And you're like, well, let's CDC, we do wayfinder Wednesday. And then I have this sheet I have to fill out. And then, and so you just kind of.

And at worst, you just kind of go like, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. And if it's too slow then, but that's what I'm supposed to do. You're subordinate to the process versus understanding that the process exists to serve the outcome. But if it's not serving the outcome, you should destroy the process and you should do something different.

And so. That is, that's a, that's an organizational cultural thing that you have to instill that like the process serves you, the process serves you, and the process serves the customer, the process. And in the event that it's not changed the process now we have to be thoughtful about when we do that.

And I, what I noticed about like for entrepreneurs, I think our disposition is. Probably closer to wrecking ball than it is to like general process follower. And so we have to be careful not to do it too much because I always want to destroy the process because I always want to rebuild it and reimagine it.

But there's sometimes where that energy is really useful. And it's probably why I like, I'm probably a better wartime style CEO than one that's in peacetime where process is really useful. And you're because coming in and the energy to do it, to just make something happen is, is a skill that I feel like.

Really useful at. And so these situations right now for a lot of brands I think we can, we can be really supportive in transforming the system a little bit towards more action in a time where it's needed.

[00:19:34] Richard Gaffin: So that's, I'd be interested to like dig a little bit more into. Into solutions then. Right. So you mentioned obviously bringing into the sort of CEO wrecking ball mentality, like that's obviously necessary to sort of move against that inertia. But what does it look like to get people bought into the idea that the process serves them in a healthy way? Cause that seems like sort of what you're presenting is the solution here.

[00:19:58] Taylor Holiday: I think we have to above all, like process has to have its appropriate place in terms of the organizational hierarchy of value. And what do I mean by that? I mean that. What we hire, fire and promote on the basis of, is it about somebody who step by step follows a process? Is it about somebody who goes out of the process to achieve the outcome?

Is it about somebody who has a marriage of the two? I think you have to look around at the models for behavior and figure out. How they signal to everybody else about how they should behave. And that's a hard thing to do. And I think sometimes we go back and forth between this. There are certainly people inside of our organization who are more predisposed to process and then those who really struggle to follow process.

And I think who gets highlighted and why is a signal to the organization about the expected behavior. And so I think it's a, it's a really deep. Problem and question to get to, but I think that's part of it is just like the signal of what you value and what gets celebrated inside of the organization.

I think also just the behavior of the leaders that at the senior most level matter a lot. But I don't know. I think that's a really good question about how to make people have a healthy relationship to process existing to serve them. Because there are times it's funny because I also think that yeah.

People will run into this issue where they pre decide about a process too

soon, or they decide that the process is too cumbersome and before they realize the impact. And so you actually just have to say, I actually don't care about your opinion about the process. You're just going to do

it. And because I've had the foresight of what will happen if you do.

So there, it's funny. I'm in this fitness community that's led by Dane, our VP of employee development here called men and women of discomfort. And the idea is. It's like a 90 day program that people join, you know, they get the benefit of developing some discipline around fitness and diet and all these things.

And the rule is when you start, like you don't get to make any decisions, you

just do the program. You completely remove autonomy. You actually say you have no decisions. Your life is entirely structured. And it's because. You're showing up and you're kind of admitting that, like, my own decision making isn't getting me where I want to go.

And so you almost have to rewire the behavioral mechanism in a way that puts you in a position. But at the end of it, once you've made it, you're a man or woman of discomfort, then you get to get Introduce basically the ability to name your own goals, decide your own plan and then follow it. So there's sort of a process like this, which is, you know, whatever the metaphor is, breaking a wild horse, training a puppy.

I don't know whatever it is where you have to give people the skills and that route, like that minute, that's pure process. Minimize all decision making. They start to understand, they see the impacts and then they get a little bit more freedom within the system. And there's some tension there between those ideas of like.

Total strict rigorous process following and total freedom and autonomy that I think is a spectrum of movement from one to the other.

[00:23:12] Richard Gaffin: Yeah, I think that there's definitely like, it feels like the, the pitfall, of course, is like, if you, if you force people into that sort of disciplinarian mode, they're going to end up just being like, well, I don't like, you know, in the military, they say, like, I got out and I can even hang out, hang up my clothes in the closet without somebody say.

So, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, there's something about if somebody's, Regular comportmental life is to actually be more of a, like a rule breaker or somebody who doesn't need process necessarily, or doesn't think they do. There's something about forcing them into that mold to watch them break out of it that actually creates the type of person that you're looking for maybe.

[00:23:51] Taylor Holiday: Yeah, it's, and it's funny because there's, there's two people in particular I could think of at CDC that are, like, very much Wild horses in the sense that they are like horrible process and resist everything, but they're highly capable, highly autonomous really great problem solvers. But what I see for them is that they need to understand the value of process

and what it could do for them to improve their own behavior without losing that special part of it.

And I'm going through right now. We have a new puppy and there's dog training. And so there's this company that comes over that, that is did a home visit for us before they train our puppy. And he was meeting with our dog and he said, Oh, she has a really high motor. That's great. That's way easier to train than if she was apathetic.

And so even though she's like wild is our experience of it. It's like, no, no, no. That's, that's actually the right starting point because that person will do and do and do and do and do and do and do and do and do versus like the apathetic version. That's way easier to train. And I've, I've experienced that a little bit too.

Like, give me the wild person who's doing stuff all the time. They're just endlessly moving. And let me harness that in the right direction versus trying to get someone yeah, To do the thing that I do think dispositionally my preference is one over

the other.

[00:25:14] Richard Gaffin: That's interesting. As the owner of an apathetic dog myself, I see exactly what you mean. Whereas like

she is not, she does not get, she's like never like torn up the drywall or whatever. And she never will. And she probably won't like pee on random stuff, but she also like, if she doesn't want to go on a walk, she just won't do it and she won't listen to us.

Right? So it's, it's, there's a

trade off. Like, it's not a big problem up front, but there's certain things that we just don't get in the future. Cause she doesn't really

I was going to say, well, like one of the thing that I was observing, and I wonder if this sounds right to you is that like, there's some. One thing that I've discovered, like organizational and teams that I've been on, that when there's a mutual understanding of value, what is valuable to the success of the business, all of a sudden, like incentives kind of become aligned by which I mean, specifically for me, let's say, you know, I work with digital products for CTC and marketing when everybody understands that the revenue, of course, is the most important thing and the highest revenue Opportunity is the most important opportunity to go after all of a sudden, people's incentives sort of naturally align a little bit. And so I'm wondering, does that make sense to you? Does that feel like something that was maybe a miss in the born primitive experience or talk about that a little bit?

[00:26:25] Taylor Holiday: Yeah. That's a great question. I think that incentive is tricky. There are people that are highly motivated by financial incentive and you can get them to behave almost very directly in alignment with that individual thing all the time. And then there are other people for whom their incentive. I think in particular, financial incentive inside of this relationship between client and our internal people, there's different layers of incentive to sort through, right?

So CTC has an earning potential relative to its relationship with the customer. That's different than the individual employees earning potential relative to CTC. So I have to think about both of those things in the alignment of them, but also. What I find is that the person has to feel authoritative over the ability to affect the outcome.

So it's not just, is the alignment clear? Are there incentives? Do they know their incentives, but is it obvious to them that they could affect it?

And and this is always the hardest part I think about incentives is setting it in the right spot where it stretches

people without discouraging them.

That's like the Goldilocks zone or whatever you call it, where you're building video games and it's sort of that

perfect balance of like difficulty to you, but not too hard that you get discouraged and not. So easy, you get bored and figuring out where to place it in a relationship with the customer.

And then the other thing I've noticed is that the larger an organization get, the harder it is for an employee to see themselves authoritative in it.

Because there's just so many people, that person's a senior VP of whatever, that person's the CMO, and then there's a CFO, and then there's the other person.

And it's like, how am I going to affect change inside of that

bog? You know, so there's all these components of it that I think you have to, you have to pair correctly, but yeah, the financial incentive certainly is, is another tool to think about in, in that

in that chest.

[00:28:08] Richard Gaffin: It's interesting. Okay. So I think maybe, is there anything you want to sum this up with any sort of final observations maybe from your, from your week on the road, so to speak, or week in the trenches?

[00:28:19] Taylor Holiday: What I would say is for companies right now, that if you are in the space where you are working to get back to the level of profitability you want and growth is that I would read some Frank Slootman and think about the energy of your organization and how quickly they are actioning. And figure out how you as the leader could reduce the barriers to action.

What resources would need to be, would need to exist? What would need to be true in order to move very quickly with clarity towards a goal. And to your point, Richard, I think one of the things that we do well at CDC is we set a very clear goal. That's

obvious every day, you know, whether you are ahead or behind target.

And then how do you introduce the idea that we don't miss? When we say we're going to do something, we do it and that that matters. That's a standard that I uphold and that for us at CDC, this is the thing I'm really after is we control the forecast. We say this is what's going to happen. It is now our responsibility to do it and we have to take that personally.

It has to be personal to you that you said this was going to happen. It matters to me that I achieve

[00:29:19] Richard Gaffin: Nice. Cool. All right. Well, I think that'll do it for us for this week. Folks, if you're listening out there and you're not a subscriber yet, and you're just listening to us please smash that subscribe button, whether you're on Spotify, Apple music. Watching on YouTube right now. It really helps us out, helps us climb the charts.

And that's what we're looking for right now, folks. But yeah, in the meantime thanks for listening to y'all and we will see you next week. Take care.